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Pardon Snowden

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#771

Post by hota_mazi »

xj9 wrote: post #732
hota_mazi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

That sounds great to me. We need more whistle blowers and more civil disobedience. We need to change, the US is a joke; a parody of itself. We have all of this freedom branding, but are afraid of that freedom. We cower behind a police state and express our fear as hatred for those who are different from us. We have exported the American Dream to the world and destroyed everything about ourselves that made this place…

> We cower behind a police state

I don't think you have any idea what a police state is.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#772

Post by [deleted] »

colemickens wrote: post #685
zeveb wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? > 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge…

Wow. Mass, completely unwarranted surveillance of all citizens is really just no sweat to you? Breaking into domestic corporations and invididuals' computers? Lying on an unprecedented scale, including to Congress. I just can't take this comment as being in good faith. The NSA has countless times violated the Constitution that binds our "government" and separation of powers that you hint at.

[deleted]

Re: Pardon Snowden

#773

Post by rbanffy »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #676
rbanffy wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you like to be specific about the damage?

for example blindly releasing/disclosing/leaking documents to the public can endanger in field operatives. Vs a reporter should be smart enough to redact the sensitive bits and report in a general enough way as to not endanger any specific person (in the field).

I know it could. Can you come up with one single instance of that? Can you compare that instance with the Valery Plame leak and the leniency afforded to Scooter Libby? Any evidence Manning had control (and, therefore, responsibility) over the release?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#774

Post by cureyourhead »

cureyourhead wrote: post #589

Well he was a patsy so pardoning him reduces the risk he will blow true story of the most successful increase in intelligence gathering capacity since WWII... So there's that. Pardon him for sure. And never doubt he's a patriot. But he doesn't believe in openness. He helped usher in a new age of secrecy. I think that's a good thing. I also think people should actually know the real.

The story of Snowden being a patsy is going to come out. It will be even more entertaining than the snowdengate tale act 1. But it will probably come out in 20 years.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#775

Post by ookdatnog »

kpwagner wrote: post #761
ookdatnog wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly, Snowden didn't even have concrete plans to escape from Hong Kong after revealing his identity. Wikileaks sent someone to get him to Russia. He just assumed he'd get caught. If this is true, I find your theory implausible. Also, from hearing him talk, I'm quite convinced he thought long and hard about the moral implications of what he's doing. To the point where it would surprise me very much if…

Interesting thoughts. Snowden definitely has some well thought out arguments in favor of his actions. I would guess he believes he is "just". My opinion is based on reading his voice and body language. It's hard to describe; he seems a little too pleased with himself and a little too happy to be along for the ride.

He may very well be vain (I haven't really picked that up myself, but I heard several people independently form that opinion, so that's plausible), but I don't think that's mutually exclusive with pure intentions.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#776

Post by ionised »

greyman wrote: post #663
ionised wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He agreed that targeted surveillance is necessary (I do too), not this indiscriminate 'collect it all' bulk surveillance of entire populations that we have now.

I think targeted surveillance is not enough - if you find a suspect, I think you need to take the bulk surveillance data and look at what that person communicated in the past and whether he is indeed a suspect, not just watch him only from this point on.

Considering the bulk approach is what they've been doing for 10 years or more and terrorist attacks continue to happen, usually by people the intelligence agencies already identify as risks, it doesn't seem to be at all effective.

The bulk approach leads to a saturation of data. That doesn't make things easier, it complicates them.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#777

Post by ionised »

hota_mazi wrote: post #474
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

Sounds awesome, let's get the ball rolling.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#778

Post by CamperBob2 »

eli wrote: post #704
CamperBob2 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They (the three-letter agencies) could always try not breaking the law. See if that cuts down on the number of employees looking to sell them down the river.

Is it up to low level employees with no legal training to decide who is breaking the law?

Hello from sunny Nuremberg. Wish you were here.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#779

Post by ionised »

BFatts wrote: post #558
jtms wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is a problem how?

What if some whistleblower wannabe releases information about the next strike on [pick a target] just because he thinks words are better than weapons and we should "talk it out." What about that kind of problem?

Depends.

Is it another strike on a Doctors Without Borders hospital? How about a school or a wedding?

What about some jarheads in a chopper gunning down unarmed civilians?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#780

Post by foxhedgehog »

jessaustin wrote: post #687
alphapapa wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a nut because...?

I didn't read everything, because the universe is still young, but randomly clicking got to this [0] in which this self-proclaimed expert, in stereotypical fashion, veers wildly between claiming secret knowledge that proves him right, claiming that everything important that Snowden released was already well-known, claiming that Snowden's releases harmed USA, and an idiosyncratic form of definite-article-based hermene…

I think that people who have domain expertise about classified information are different from people claiming "secret knowledge." He overstates his case in some circumstances, and I think that there were positive effects of the publicization of some of of the Snowden data, but it's also tough to dispute, I think, that his releases also harmed the United States. I'm happy to expand on this if you need.
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