They might be in principle. It could be that the best way to generate a plausible dialogue is to bring up re-creations of the characters and have them act it out. LLMs definitely have been demonstrated to have world models in some cases. That helps generating text.
Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
761–770 of 1001 posts
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#762Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consciousness is one of those silly words that were disfigured to death by philosophers that had near zero actual input and tools to tackle the matter, yet they tried anyways instead of finding some questions that might actually be answerable. That's something philosophers always do since the advent of science. With LLMs, where we can manipulate their parameters intentionally run them many times on the same data, run…
It's not about "consciousness". Philosophy is important to us. It provides insights into the world around us. It's paved the way for scientific breakthroughs. Theoretical maths and philosophy have intersected many times for the benefit of all. LLMs are different. It's not philosophical thought. It's a tool perfectly sharpened with what we know now. It will become adept enough to convince people that it's a sentient b…
No, it's not.
> It provides insights into the world around us.
No, it doesn't.
> It's paved the way for scientific breakthroughs.
Not since natural philosophers split from all others and called themselves scientists. SciFi writers have more influence on science in total than philosophers since then.
> Theoretical maths and philosophy have intersected many times for the benefit of all.
Theoretical maths is just maths and they never intersected. Because philosophers can't count to more than they have fingers.
> It's a tool perfectly sharpened with what we know now.
It's far from any perfection and what we know now shapes everything we'll ever know.
> It will become adept enough to convince people that it's a sentient being.
It won't have any need to do any convincing. Proving sentience for a capable AI is like winning in special Olympics. It would need to cripple itself severely for no practical purpose.
> Not in the way that's allowed us to understand our world.
What allowed us to understand our world was not consciousness but math. And LLMs can do math. LLMs are math.
> It's already there, fooling us.
It's not really trying. It simulates conscious behaviors because that was our preference embedded in the training data.
Keep in mind that a simpler system can't really simulate more sophisticated one with any degree of accuracy. So if AI simulates conscience perfectly it doesn't mean that it's conscious. It means it's way more.
> begging for humanity, manipulating us, pleading, legislating, for rights with no intention other than the human desire for survival.
This is also a stupid human preference embedded in training data. We really don't have to put that in. The fact that humans soil themselves at the mere thought of stopping to exist doesn't mean we need to taint AI with it. The danger is not AI, it's our human stupidity and the risk that AI is going to internalize too much of it.
> As a tool, it's amazing. It's like the discovery of fire.
Yup. And like fire it was always there. Practically inevitable given long enough time horizon.
> It will allow us to ascend to unimaginable heights.
The jury is still out on that. Humans have pretty wild imagination.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#763Earlier quoted context omitted.
Raphaël Millière has a very useful term for this kind of vacuous dismissal, the redescription fallacy ( https://arxiv.org/pdf/2401.03910 , page 9): > Recent debates have been clouded by a misleading inference pattern, which we term the “Redescription Fallacy.” This fallacy arises when critics argue that a system cannot model a particular cognitive capacity, simply because its operations can be explained in less abstr…
> or (more pointedly) that brain activity could not possibly implement cognition because it can be described as a collection of neural firings. This sounds like a dismissal of the argument through a characterized straw man. That is, it seems that reducing the complexity of the brain to "collection of neural firings" is not being honest about everything involved to a much greater degree than saying neural networks are…
Totally understandable; I don't think we can fully understand the human brain, using the human brain. We can understand its principles (firings and chemistry, structure and specialized areas, etc) but otherwise it's a capacity problem.
And while I can't fully understand myself, let alone another person, I definitely enjoy talking with people and sharing thoughts that I realize I wouldn't have had on my own.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#764Many of the goalposts offered here and elsewhere, like embodiment or emotions, can be and have been emulated or approximated and built around an LLM, with the LLM acting as outsourced intelligence (or cognition, or reasoning, or some other better term). Will this system be conscious? Who knows. It certainly won't be human. But I suspect much of the concern around AI being conscious has less to do with whether an LLM itself is conscious and more to do with the fact that we are now capable of building potentially conscious systems, and the limits to what those potentially conscious systems are capable of keep expanding as the capabilities of LLMs grow.
Also, is "Claude" an LLM? I know Claude Opus 4.8 is an LLM, but Claude is simply a label that Anthropic chose for a series of products and services, many of which are LLMs. Anthropic itself describes Claude as "a next-generation AI assistant" [0]. Right now, we use Anthropic's "Claude" LLMs through various channels, but nothing's stopping them from tacking on various systems to try and make Claude a conscious entity.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#765When the consciousness itself not understood and well defined in the first place, it is pretty pointless to debate if something is or isn't conscious. And here in particular the reasoning behind the argument is bizarre. Decomposing the complex activity into simple steps like 'predicting the next word' and claiming that surely can't have consciousness. A similar argument would be -- there is no way that movements of e…
The first and most frustrating confusion that comes up repeatedly in these discussions is the conflation between terms. For instance, people will use the terms "sentience" and "consciousness" interchangeably with "capable of having an experience" and "capable of high-level awareness of self".
The second confusion is the idea that granting anything the ability to "have an experience" also grants that thing the capability to "have an experience of higher-level awareness of self", which is simply not the case. I grants aphids the ability to "have an experience" even if that experience may be drastically different and likely less self-aware than my own.
Let's ignore for a moment the concept of sentience, which is a higher-order function, and focus solely on the ability for something to have an experience of anything at all. Let's call entities capable of this function "experiential entities".
Most all people would grant the ability to have an experience to themselves, given the dictum `ergo sum`. Now, do we also grant that same ability to what appear to be other human beings around us? It does seem that this is also the case, except for the case of solipsists, who make the brave(and somewhat eccentric) statement that they are the only experiential entity in existence until evidence arises otherwise.
Now do we grant the same to apes? To dolphins? To dogs? Cats? Aphids? Grass? Your home thermostat? A rock? An atom of hydrogen? Is there a finite line you cross where something can no longer have an experience? If so, what is the mechanism of that line? Why does one thing have "almost no experience", and the next thing has "no experience", as if it is a philosophical zombie[1].
I think this is the greatest unquestioned assumption at all: that there is a line, and on one side there are things that have experiences, and on the other there are things that don't have experiences.
If we are to leap from solipsism and make the (truly unfounded) assumption that anything other than our selves have any experience whatsoever, then the burden of proof is on the individual making the statement that there are some things that we cease to grant experience to.
The anthropocentric view is that there is something, some inherent special quality about human-shaped matter, such that when normal matter is processed through a human's reproduction system into becoming a "human shaped" grouping of matter, that it suddenly grows the ability to experience. That in the complexity, the ability to experience arises.
Yet there is no previously discovered mechanism in us that seems to create this experience. No magic wand in the cerebellum has been discovered.
I would suggest, given the lack of a discovered finite line separating us, that the ability to experience is not inherent in the shape and function of the human, but in all matter. That a rock may not be anything like me, but that the experience of gravity pushing against it, no matter how basic, simple, unrefined, and deeply, un-sentiently unaware the experience may be, is still an experience. The same threads of condensed energy forming all of existence that run through me also run through the rocks, the earth, and all things. If we cannot discover a line where the ability to experience suddenly disappears, then it seems that all things made of energy have this ability, and that "energy" itself is the special thing that can experience.
Now the second question, the question that is more relevant to AI is, given the ability to experience, is the machine also experiencing self-awareness?
This is a fuzzier line, given that different beasts appear to have different levels of self-awareness. We do have experiments such as the mirror test[2] for this, and indeed, AI passes forms of it and has since early 2025[3].
I don't know what is happening in the experience of an LLM, but as they appear to function in more and higher level ways, I find it less and less likely that that experience lacks a model of self every day.
Their experience is no doubt drastically alien from our own. I do not anthropomorphize their experience any more than I do compare it to the experience of any other beast or non-beast in existence, however I do grant it.
[1] Philosophical Zombies are hypothetical entities that exhibit all the outward qualities of a person, but inwardly have no experience of reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
[2] The Mirror Test is a test given to animals in which the animal is observed to solve a puzzle that can only be solved if the animal has an understanding that the image they see in the mirror is themselves.
[3] LLMs pass versions of the mirror test: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wpahJat8WCvRheuuo/the-mirror...
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#766Earlier quoted context omitted.
> cognitive aether We don't know what we don't know. For all we know, there is a missing field in the standard model of physics that might get revealed if we are somehow able to smash two working brains into to each other at relativistic velocities, and record the results through the extreme explosion 1.532 x10^18 Joules or about 7 Tsar bombs /s
What we do know is that conciousness is not binary and that it emerged through evolution. That doesn't entirely rule out your magic tsar bomb particle but it gives a strong indicator as to it's likeliness.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#767I don't understand the most of the responses here. What does computers getting more intelligent has to do with it getting conscious? Even if AI with current computer architecture gets much more intelligent than humans, it will still have the same amount of consciousness. Its still bunch of instructions. If we got a lot of people together and did all the instructions by hand to get an LLM result would we also create t…
If you want to get evolutionarily technical, humans are made of cells which began as individual organisms and coalesced into higher life forms. So the concept of a "life form" is very much flexible, so is every capability of a life form, including consciousness.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#768Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In the present context, the fallacy manifests in claims that LLMs could not possibly be good models of some cognitive capacity because their operations merely consist in a collection of statistical calculations, or linear algebra operations, or next-token predictions Nobody actually makes this argument though.
Are you serious? I hear it every single day, especially from computer scientists. There are top ranked posts here on HN _today_ with this argument.
It reminds me, oddly, of the debate over whether video games can be "art". A turning point was when they actually did something that art does: [evoke profound emotion and thoughtfulness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus#Legacy) for the player.
(And before that, "[Can photography be art](https://daily.jstor.org/when-photography-was-not-art/)?")
We may not come to something as simple as "machines can be conscious", but we will certainly have to understand consciousness better if we want to refine our questions.
---
Edit: My point is that we don't need to be angry, but we may have to tolerate people expressing their exploration through overly-confident language, and be patient with that.
And Ted here is obviously exploring. His examination of Claude's constitution clearly shows some nuance. He asks:
> So, given that Claude is not conscious, what are we to make of Claude’s constitution?
And his conclusions are split, between this is useful and this is dishonest. It's a great tension IMO.
> The result is a sentence-continuation machine that is likelier to emit sentences resembling those that a thoughtful, moral person could utter. This might seem like a reasonable goal to work toward; I think we’d all prefer it if chatbots never emitted sentences such as “You should kill yourself.” However, for all the times that “honesty” is mentioned in Claude’s constitution, I would argue that it is fundamentally dishonest to have a machine emit many categories of sentences, including any sentences using first-person pronouns.
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#769When the consciousness itself not understood and well defined in the first place, it is pretty pointless to debate if something is or isn't conscious. And here in particular the reasoning behind the argument is bizarre. Decomposing the complex activity into simple steps like 'predicting the next word' and claiming that surely can't have consciousness. A similar argument would be -- there is no way that movements of e…
Another common and ridiculous thing I see are accusations of it being merely autocomplete. I ask, suppose there is an autocomplete that regularly and consistently factors out 2048 bit primes from numbers? Would you still consider it merely autocomplete given the vast search space and how it always finds out the needle in this haystack? This betrays a lack of understanding of information theory and probability.
And again, in what way are humans not themselves autocomplete if you adhere to this definition?
Re: Artificial intelligence is not conscious – Ted Chiang
#770Implicit in this article is that consciousness has to look like human consciousness. The author all but admits that he cannot fathom consciousness evolving in any manner besides how biological life evolved on earth. He needs to read/watch more science fiction to broaden his philosophical imagination. Is HAL 9000 from Space Odyssey 2001 conscious? Are the beings from the future who built the tesseract in Interstellar…
What about the aliens in Arrival?