Live data from Hacker News

The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

techtrenches.dev

761–770 of 896 posts

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's an important property of a system to be document able not just document ed . What I mean essentially, is the system was designed with sound principles, and said principles were written down and followed. I have seen this work only once in my life, and it was so nice to see, but yeah, most code is just a ball of twine, and even if there was a guiding principle beneath, it has been long abandoned, and over…

I think it’s reasonably easy to design a system that’s documentable and documented. It’s very, very hard to maintain and iterate on a system while maintaining those properties. Hacky things will make their way in because it takes a month to do the documentable thing and a week to ship the hacky thing. It takes a lot of skilled people from varying disciplines to figure out what things are going to survive long enough…

Let me give you and example of what I referred to - I used to work on a big enterprise app that was a desktop app, it had a dockable very complex user interface and a quite sophisticated data management layer that you were supposed to integrate with to display and query stuff.

These core services were extremely well designed and documented, and if you wrote a component using them, you could be reasonably certain the UI displayed correctly, behaved consistently etc.

But imo even more importantly, due to the patterns these components enforced, if you wrote a component like this, chances were somebody could go in and read your code and understand what it did, and if you depended on external stuff, even then it was very clear on what and how.

A lot of the code was using this correctly, but some wasn't for whatever reason. And the ones that didn't were utter hell to work with, as they could change state any time, did things their own way, depended on implementation details etc..

Essentially had to understand the whole code base, like what services call where, in what order to things happen etc. to work with that code.

Behavior of those components was essentially 'what the code did' and therefore undocumentable.

For reasons, the amount of code belonging in the latter category grew and grew, and eventually it infected the core systems, as the invariants described by the documentation basically no longer be expected to hold in any scenario, and the whole thing became an undocumentable ball of twine, where the code did things not because it made sense, but to work around bits and quirks of other pieces of code.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, I don't agree with your implication that AI produced code is bad. Never said that. I said generating code with an LLM then not looking at it at all and pushing it (which is what started this whole comment thread) is a selfish and lazy decision. Not everyone prescribes to a strict anti-work stance. Most people don’t in fact. So we’re at quite an impasse and it doesn’t change the fact that your decision…

And I don't agree with that. Who cares how the code got generated? Like I said most code that's written by AI is better than code written by humans.

> Like I said most code that's written by AI is better than code written by human

1) this is an arbitrary bar that needs more qualifiers (all code? All people?) and 2) citation needed.

I don’t care how it was generated. I want you to vet the results at some point with your knowledge and not send me whatever it spits out with no consideration for the results. You’re not sticking it to capitalism when you pass the buck to me. You’re being selfish.

I think we are just too far apart on this to be productive unfortunately. I just urge you to consider the impact of your choices. See my accessibility comment from a different part of the thread:

> I also may be staring at consequences you are not. It’s passing the buck with no regard for who is left to deal with the results at the end.

>What if we are working on, say, accessibility tasks? If I see your work won’t actually help those in society who seriously need these features, what am I supposed to do? My kneejerk is 1) fix it (more work for me, selfish on your part), 2) kick it back to your lazy hands that clearly doesn’t see this as an issue, or 3) send it up the chain (or laterally) where someone else has to ask these questions or - worse - it gets shipped and people who need this stuff are screwed. This is basic ethics.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#764
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s even a management tutorial game which demonstrates the dangers of removing too much slack from systems. It’s called The Beer Game[1]. One of the funny things about it is even people that have played and discussed it before _still_ make the same fundamental mistakes next time. Short-termism is the death of companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_distribution_game

Wut? The point of the beer game is that buffering in the supply chain makes the bullwhip effect worse.

Proportional-only buffer management makes the bullwhip effect worse.

You need an integral part that knows what the entire chain reaction time is. But if you don't have a buffer, you can't do that part, you can only react strictly to the conditions your suppliers have right now.

A derivative part seems quite useless in a non-coordinated game. But it could in theory pass a "message" upchain that they need to start reacting. Anyway in any real situation it will be easier to pass a message around by telling stuff to people.

At the end of the day, the relative penalty for storage or non-delivery is what will dictate the optimum play style. But it's perfectly viable to use buffers to attenuate the bullwhip instead of making it larger.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#765
post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit maximization is a continuous process that has generated our high standard of living. P.S. I welcome all attempts to prove me wrong!

I would argue that profit maximization has had very many effects. On the one side, it has succeeded at reducing costs, which has indeed given rich societies unprecedented access to consumer goods. On the other, it has outsourced from us both jobs and knowledge, which has resulted in higher unemployment and dissatisfaction, with as consequences the political dominoes we see falling internationally. That and the shoddy…

Outsourcing happens when it is cheaper to build something somewhere else. Tariffs can compensate for that.

Where are the starving people in capitalist countries?

The US health care system is pretty much run by the government. It is not a result of free markets.

A large part of profit maximization (i.e. optimizing) usually means reducing the amount of material needed. Isn't that a good thing?

The people who "rough it" in the wilderness still seem to be backpacking in hi tech equipment. I read about the kit that Lewis & Clark carried. No thanks. (Even on that "Alone" show, they bring hi tech equipment.)

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Law of Supply and Demand is in play, and it means a company cannot dictate prices, wages, or working conditions in a free market economy. Rising productivity would have reduced the average work week regardless. If you still aren't convinced, consider that the benefits package routinely offered to employees is worth around 40% of their pay.

A free market is bound by the rules of the market, which is trade agreements and government. Meaning it can be changed and adjusted.

Nobody has ever succeeded adjusting the Law of Supply & Demand. Not even the die hard communists.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#767

There's a certain irony in that the article itself is quite clearly assisted by AI. Not a criticism per se as I don't have a problem with AI assistance, but food for thought given the material being commented on.

Made me stop reading a few paragraphs in. I don't have a "problem" in the ethical sense either, but as the sibling comment notes, the way LLMs write is rather grating. To make matters worse, a) people seem to use them to add pointless volume / "filler" to their texts, so now I have to wade through pages and pages of this stuff, and b) I have no easy way to distinguish between an article at least based on novel human…

The filler from AI articles drives me absolutely bonkers. Im a fast reader in general and can skim through articles to find important details at lightning speed, but it still takes me 5x longer to skim through all the AI fluff than it does to go back and search for a non-ai article and then read through that.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#768
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also took out all the quality , though in pure business terms one can argue that's a kind of "slack" by itself. The beancounters have cut all the corners on physical products that they could find. Now even design and manufacturing is outsourced to the lowest bidder, a bunch of monkeys paid peanuts to do a job they're woefully unqualified for. And the end result is just a market for lemons. Nobody trusts products…

> Desktop Linux has always been kind of a joke. It hasn't gotten better, the problems are all still there. Desktop Linux mostly works these days. It does everything most regular people would want of it, with zero fuss. Including playing games. In some respects, it's easier to use than Mac or Windows. When it has trouble with some things, one must remember neither Mac nor Windows is perfect, and they can be extremely…

You know, I think you're right. I set up Void Linux on my desktop a couple of years ago, using the plainest base image. I chose that path because ZFS is important to me, and systemd is ugly to me.

I determined that this minimal start was the right confluence of those two preferences with the howto documentation available at the time, so that's what I did.

So I'm going along in rolling releases for years, and even playing games fine (except GTA:V online). Things are fine until there's some weird flickering-window bug that rolls down the pipe and apparently only affects nVidia users who use xfce4. It's an awful and particularly jarring bug.

The workaround is to disable vsync in xfce4, which solves that problem but always causes tearing for me. Even in YouTube videos. (Who knew how reliant we'd become on rote frame synchronization? Why, it seems like just yesterday when I was streaming potato-quality RealVideo episodes of South Park over dialup on a K6-2 box while marveling that any of it worked at all.)

I don't know which party is responsible for that problem, but nVidia has supposedly fixed it on their end in recent weeks. Which is cool, but this distro isn't shipping that version yet. And I'm reluctant to go off-script -- I loathe the idea of letting the nVidia installer do whatever it wants, and I'm not too keen on building my own package for xbps to handle (hopefully with better grace), either.

It was time to fix it anyway.

And I wanted to give Wayland a shot because there's a limitation with SDL that causes the clipboard method used by Factorio to fail to work with large blueprints under X11, so change was already in the air.

And so it began.

KDE Plasma: I couldn't get it to work. With both X11 and Wayland, parts of it would just die without leaving any traces I could find. It was unusable. I spent hours troubleshooting it and only a few minutes of actually using it, which is a terrible ratio. It had to go.

Gnome: It actually worked OK with Wayland. But when I say "worked OK", I mean that it acted like a touchscreen interface -- for toddlers. It didn't crash in mysterious and buried ways, which is good, but it I found it to be an affront to my sensibilities in ways that I simply could not tolerate. I won't apologize for hating it or for feeling insulted by it. That iteration of Gnome is dead to me.

So working down the list of non-ancient desktop environments: Cinnamon? It works. It's alright. It took some kicking to get sound to work because the mixer it comes with makes it impossible to set up default outputs in a way that behaves here and it reverts the system to its own broken ideas every time it runs, but it responded to my kicks without much of a fight and it works. The xfce4 volume mixer is on the taskbar instead, and I removed all traces of the Cinnamon mixer like it was a cancerous tumor, but with that done: Sound works. Regular X stuff works. It's good enough.

I haven't tried it with Wayland yet to see I can work around the SDL+Factorio SNAFU, but it's been behaving itself with X11 for a week or more.

---

Now, that may sound awful. And to be clear, it wasn't fun at all. But at least it's not like my Windows laptop. I've got stories about that, for sure.

One of things that sticks out right now is when that laptop would deplete its battery just sitting in my bag in the car. That was weird, but it became more urgent to fix it when I got the machine out of the bag and it was hot.

The cause for that was an HP printer driver (for a rather old color printer that I don't even own -- I do use it sometimes, but it's 25 miles away) that was periodically waking the machine from hibernation to check that printer's supply status, so it could try to sell me more stuff.

This task was so completely buried in Windows that it took hours to find it, and it was configured by its installer to wake the machine from hibernation -- including, specifically, while on battery. Because that's obviously what every user of any printer needs: Computers that turn themselves on using battery power to sell toner cartridges while hidden unseen inside of a bag in the back of a car.

It didn't have to be that way, but it was this way anyway. I consider that kind of thing to be deliberate in a fashion that extends beyond mere maliciousness: It is instead simply fucking evil.

---

So yeah, Linux is a great desktop.

I'd like to propose a new slogan: "Linux. At least it's not deliberately evil. Usually."

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#769

I still code daily without any coding assistance mostly because I believe this is the way to not forget how things are done, even trivial things. My main point against using AI is that I do not want to depend basically on anything when I'm in front of the screen (obviously not including, documentation, books, SO and alike). I closely see people that are 100% dependent on AI for literally everything, even the most tri…

I think your forgetting what programming actually is. Its a way convert instructions into 1 & 0s. The programming language your using is irrelevant. If AI can do the same thing with natural language is just a matter of time before we drop the "programming language" layer and AI just creates programs using straight up machine code.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Law of Supply and Demand is in play, and it means a company cannot dictate prices, wages, or working conditions in a free market economy. Rising productivity would have reduced the average work week regardless. If you still aren't convinced, consider that the benefits package routinely offered to employees is worth around 40% of their pay.

> Rising productivity would have reduced the average work week regardless. Do you have evidence of this? > consider that the benefits package routinely offered to employees is worth around 40% of their pay Please define "routinely" and "employees". Part-time employees do not get benefits packages, much less benefits packages worth 40% of their pay. PTO, Sick time, family leave, and other "benefits" are actually legal…

> Do you have evidence of this?

Yes. Part time work.

Google sez: "Total compensation generally exceeds base salary by 30% to 50% for many roles, meaning salary often represents only 60% to 70% of an employee's total worth to the company."

Google sez total compensation includes bonuses, commission, stock options, employer-paid insurance (health, life, disability), retirement contributions, paid time off, tuition reimbursement, student loan assistance, gym memberships, employee discounts, Childcare assistance, commuter benefits, and relocation expenses.

None of those are mandated by law.

Post reply on HN