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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#761

Post by techblueberry »

kooshball wrote: post #694
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

> Better the nanny state than Nanny Zuck. This is a huge self own. I can't believe I'm reading this on a website called "hacker news".

Why? Hackers need something to hack.

But you're right, 'twas a bit much.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#762

Post by txrx0000 »

trueno wrote: post #661
txrx0000 wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to give individual users control over their own device than to give a centralized authority control over what happens on everyone's device over the Internet. Local user-controlled toggles are just easier to implement. All parental moderation mechanisms can and should be implemented as opt-in on-device settings. What governments need to do is pressure companies to implement those on-device settings. A…

Am I the only one that is repeatedly amused at how many smart people are just caving to making this about parents/children at all? We've literally watched things unfold in real time out in the open in the last year I don't know how much more obvious it could be that child-protections are the bad-faith excuse the powers that be are using here. Combined with their control of broadcasting/social media, it's the very thi…

I make this argument to neutralize the "protect the children" excuse and also delegitimize the age verification "solution" by pointing out that on-device settings are more effective and easier to implement yet rarely discussed.

There are some parents genuinely concerned with parenting. We should give them the tools to do that and thereby removing them from the discourse, then we can focus on the bad faith people that want more control. I think there are still enough well-meaning people in governments that if we popularize on-device settings, it will prevent age verification in at least a handful of countries, and that's good enough to keep the spark of the free Internet going until we figure out a more permanent solution.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#763

Post by PastScales »

I have been a kid and now a parent. It is impossible with the tools available to proof kids from the internet. If it's not a parent it's at a friends house, school devices, or a dedicated sense of curiosity.

Two things tech companies want to protect:

The perception of anonymity

Who gets to collect that information

I agree that a smaller loop of people should have that data but the loop is growing every day.

So if it ruins the perception anonymity for young naieve users so be it.

I'm not saying it's impossible to be somewhat anon, I'm just saying untrained users should understand the environment they're interacting with before they get hooked on useless products.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#764

Post by Forgeties79 »

hunterpayne wrote: post #756
Forgeties79 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. It’s not a fair fight. These are multi-billion dollar companies with international reach and decades of investment and research weaponized against us to make us all little addicts. Additionally, it’s not fair or reasonable to ask parents to screen literally everything their kids do with a screen at all times any…

You are screwed but not for the reason you claim. Its because you don't take any accountability for yourself. There is/was no hope for someone who does that at any point in human history. Is it fair? Nope...but it also doesn't mean you have 0 autonomy.

> You are screwed but not for the reason you claim. Its because you don't take any accountability for yourself.

That was an incredibly rude personal attack and completely unwarranted. You cannot talk to people like that here.

I won’t be discussing this with you further. Have a good rest of your week.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#765

Post by m4rtink »

commandlinefan wrote: post #691
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

> Better the nanny state than Nanny Zuck. The state can imprison you. Zuck can't.

Yet! ;-)

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#766

Post by hunterpayne »

redwall_hp wrote: post #549
tinfoilhatter wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should stop pretending these age-verification rollouts are about protecting children, because they aren't and never have been. Even if the world was full of responsible parents, there are still people and groups that want to establish a surveillance state. These systems are focused on monitoring and tracking online activity / limiting access to those who are willing to sacrifice their own personal sovereignty for…

It's funny, all the bible wankers screamed about "the mark of the beast" over things like RealID. Now we have fascists setting up surveillance and censorship tools to tie speech and movement to centralized ID...and they're lining up to lick boots. You should need to show ID and prove you're over 18 to enter a church. At least we know they're actually harmful to children.

The people pushing this are the same ones who are always screaming about "fascists". Also, your ideas in your post are anti-liberal and anti-constitutional (in the US).

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#767

Post by [deleted] »

cowboylowrez wrote: post #717
Terretta wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... start with fuck these companies. Better the nanny state than Nanny Zuck. I'm not sure how those two positions connect. Execs bad, so laws requiring giving those execs everyone's IDs, instead of laws against twirled mustaches?

these are just bad arguments all around, including gov't with this upload id crap. Why aren't we making internet 18+? The only unrefutable answers I get are just downvotes which is ok I guess, sort of validates my point because there's no reason for kids to get unrestricted internet access and downvotes are easy.

[deleted]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#768

Post by guptadeepak »

Age verification is a tough problem.

I ran into this when building a kids' education app a few years ago. We explored a bunch of options, from asking for the last four digits of their parents' SSN (which felt icky, even though it's just a partial number) to knowledge-based authentication (like security questions, but for parents).

Ultimately, we went with a COPPA-compliant verification service, but it added friction to the signup process.

It's a trade-off between security and user experience, and there's no perfect solution, unfortunately.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#769

Post by bacchusracine »

bondarchuk wrote: post #350
bacchusracine wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the word you're missing is fatigue. The average tech literate person keep seeing their data breached over and over again. Not because THEY did anything wrong, but because these Corpos can't help themselves. No matter how well the tech literate person secures their privacy it has become clear that some Corpo will eventually release everything in an "accident" that causes their efforts to become meaningless. Af…

People are saying privacy is dead for decades, yet privacy continually declines more and more. And there's still quite a ways it can go from here. The defeatist attitude only helps further erosion.

Please don’t mistake description for advocacy.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#770

Post by j45 »

hunterpayne wrote: post #753
j45 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents themselves weren't raised with the digital literacy required. This doesn't put the parents off the hooks, if you or anyone can share any resources that are as easily consumable, viral and applicable as the content that is the issue that can reach parents I would be happy to help it spread. The reality is kids today are facing the most advanced algorithms and even the most competent parents have a high bar…

> "The parents themselves weren't raised with the digital literacy required." At this point, that isn't true anymore. There was social media when the parents were school aged. The world didn't start when you were 10 and the Internet is a half century old.

I thought the same thing until someone asked me how many of them have been able to overcome digital addiction and set a path ahead that's healthy.

Being literate in something isn't just knowing how to use it, but how to manage it's use for one's self and for others.

Once you see the importance of it, knowing where/how to start to manage what kids are exposed to that is age or developmentally appropriate for them is entirely a different skill to meet and manage the digtial literacy of another human, especially a child.

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