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In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

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Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#761

Post by thinkcontext »

Moldoteck wrote: post #464
thinkcontext wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in China the case for nuclear isn't overwhelming. They are building a lot of nuclear relative to the rest of the world but its not that much compared to how much wind and solar they are deploying.

Yes. Mostly because of inland ban. Costwise their nuclear is extremely cheap, probably even cheaper than ren, but it's harder to scale (or unwillingness). But per capita they don't even match french deployments during messmer or swedish bwr units during peak

Isn't the inland ban due to water scarcity? I thought the plan was to deploy Gen IV helium cooled reactors which don't need that amount of water.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#762

Post by thinkcontext »

pfdietz wrote: post #550
thinkcontext wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US gave the nuclear industry a chance for a nuclear renaissance with the subsidies they asked for towards the AP1000. The industry whiffed big time. Looks like nuclear will get another chance with the increased subsidies begun under Biden, the deregulatory approach of Trump and the huge demand spike in electricity. Its an open question on whether they'll be able to deliver.

Judged historically, it will be a massive fiasco.

Nuscale certainly hasn't covered themselves in glory.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#763

Post by PunchyHamster »

pfdietz wrote: post #684
PunchyHamster wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can start with non-dispersed carbon atoms coming off industrial processes. Green hydrogen and CO2 into methane

This is just one-time repackaging of the CO2 from fossil fuel combustion. It's not an answer.

there is no "answer". We will have industrial processes producing CO2. We have to deal with it, and that is one way.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#764

Post by phtrivier »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #562
lejalv wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do time my dishwasher and washing machine to align with peak solar where I live. I'd like to appeal to you to evolve that frame of mind. To help avoid first world problems (I can't wash a dish by hand, I need it now ) devolving into third-world ones (power cuts, crop failures, torrid tropical nights on mid latitudes, mountains disintegrated). Sometimes its important to remind we're on a generational mission, and it…

> Sometimes its important to remind we're on a generational mission, and it's not maximising Netflix time. Get that into the society's rules and then we'll talk. I like to think I'm modest and sensible but I'm not bending over backwards while my neighbours get to do what I perceive as ridiculous things. I used to live in a two bedroom unit, conserving things for the environment and next generation. But next door the…

You can't ask anyone to change society's rules by themselves. That being said, you are part of society. If you live differently than your neighbors, you might actually be the model that people will emulate, and not the gaz guzzler.

Sadly, that's pretty much the extent of your control, unfortunately (that, and maybe voting for people to change the laws, which would indirectly change the rules of society - although, usually, the relation goes the other way.)

In this case, if it's even in people best interest to change the "timing of dishwashing" to align on cheap hours - I trust people will do.

The trick is to not overpolitize it - my mum has always launched her dishwasher during "heures creuses", not caring a damn about why the electricity is cheaper at this time. If the cheapest hours end up being earlier, lots of people will just adapt to save a few bucks - it may be smarter to NOT mention solar power, or environment, or whatnot.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#765

Post by KaiserPro »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #540
KaiserPro wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, in the same way that solar has now peaked in spain/portugal in its current config. They are moving to solar+battery to absorb solar mid day and replay that in the morning/evening. (that doesn't really apply in the UK because of the rain) As more renewables come on stream and the grid gets more complex, batteries are going to plug holes. Energy Arbitrage is usually a good thing, so long as its regulated to for…

> (which means less price pressure linked to LNG prices, if you're not into the co2 aspect) No it doesn’t. The arbitration is only possible because the battery storage providers can ever so slightly undercut the gas peakers. The price pressure is still linked to the LNG price.

> The arbitration is only possible because the battery storage providers can ever so slightly undercut the gas peakers.

I think you underestimate the cost of running a grid battery, you need to be able to undercut significantly to make profit.

Its not like you can practically keep the battery at 98% for 7 days waiting for the right time to discharge, its not that simple.

The aim is to make as much money, but the markets you can join are regulated (in the UK)

You can be a grid stabilisation service (paid to be at % percent battery and turn on/off in milliseconds to keep the frequency from going too high or low)

You can be intra day, or day ahead. but you're not likley to be dayahead because you're rated at x Mw for n hours. The stuff that I know about in iberia is ~100-300Mw for 3 hours. Again spain is a special case because the market is peer to peer through PPA.

I digress.

The point is sure last year there wasn't really enough battery to affect peak price(in the UK), but now there is 19 gwhr. assuming its all rated for 3 hours, that around 18 % of total generating capacity for 5-8pm.

Now as there is a mix of cfd and other financial things that actually affect price, it doesn't quite work like that in the UK.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#767

Post by KaiserPro »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #539
KaiserPro wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the UK in winter we regularly have periods of 5 cloudy days True, but then for the UK solar power isn't the right thing for winter, hence why we need a massive mix of other stuff. Also we have the advantage that france isn't that far away. In the UK battery is about grid stabilisation, as in making sure that it hums at 50hz rather than 49.

Your answer to renewables being intermittent is: France! . Good, we agree the solution is: Nuclear! .

well yeah, I wanted tony blair to have allowed EDF to build those 10 nukes at 2004 prices.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#768

Post by pfdietz »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #763
pfdietz wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just one-time repackaging of the CO2 from fossil fuel combustion. It's not an answer.

there is no "answer". We will have industrial processes producing CO2. We have to deal with it, and that is one way.

Those processes have to be eliminated, yes. Now let's get back to talking about long term grid storage. Piggybacking storage on emissions that have to be eliminated obviously isn't a solution.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#769

Post by mrits »

Tepix wrote: post #26
mrits wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not always a no-brainer. If you live in a good established neighborhood in a warmer climate you'd have to remove tree coverage. Even if you did that, it's the other guys not oil or gas that will make it a hassle.

Houses where the roof is completely in the shade from trees? That's not a very common sight.

It's a very common site and greatly increases the value of the property.

It reminds me of when I was telling my Canadian friend how my pool gets a lot of leaves in it from all the trees and they said that was unfortunate. In Austin the pools get too hot to actually swim in if they aren't shaded.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#770

Post by DrBazza »

breakyerself wrote: post #740
DrBazza wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote mentions gas only. What about coal, oil, and biofuel? Record energy costs are a thing. If solar and wind are 'free', why have European energy prices risen so much? The real-world contra-indicators are the USA, China and pretty much any country outside the groupthink of the G20. Whilst state interference is a factor, more tellingly they haven't slavishly followed the suicidal empathy of being 'green' and sh…

China installed more renewables in 2025 than the rest of the world combined.

We're talking about historically, up until now. They've continued to bring online more fossil fuel and nuclear plants in last decade, whilst Europe has done the complete opposite. It's only this year that fossil fuel plants are predicted to peak in China. The point being plentiful 'anything' forces prices down, including energy, and China are doing exactly what I said in the previous point: not shutting down nuclear or fossil fuels yet.

For example - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/charting-chinas-evol...

Europe on the other hand, has shut down nuclear and fossil fuels over the last decade and removed a source of cheap energy from the grid. And by cheap I mean, the build costs, are a sunk cost.

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