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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it seems to be a semantics argument. We don't have a name for a thing that is "useful in many of the same ways 'thinking' is, except not actually consciously thinking" I propose calling it "thunking"

They moved goalposts. Linux and worms think too, the question is how smart are they. And if you assume consciousness has no manifestation even in case of humans, caring about it is pointless too.

Yes, worms think, let the computers have thinking too, the philosophers can still argue all they want about consciousness.

Humans are special, we emit meaning the way stars emit photons, we are rare in the universe as far as empirical observation has revealed. Even with AGI the existence of each complex meaning generator will be a cosmic rarity.

For some people that seems to be not enough, due to their factually wrong word views they see themselves as common and worthless (when they empirically aren't) and need this little psychological boost of unexaminable metaphysical superiority.

But there is an issue of course, the type of thinking humans do is dangerous but net positive and relatively stable, we have a long history where most instantiations of humans can persist and grow themselves and the species as a whole, we have a track record.

These new models do not, people have brains that as they stop functioning they stop persisting the apparatus that supports the brain and they die, people tend to become less capable and active as their thinking deteriorates and hold less influence ocer others accept in rare cases.

This is not the case for an LLM, they seem to be able to hallucinate endlessly and as they have access to the outside world maintain roughly their same amount of causal leverage, their clarity and accuracy of their thinking isn't tied to their persisting.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#762

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

I don’t see how being critical of this is a knee jerk response. Thinking , like intelligence and many other words designating complex things, isn’t a simple topic. The word and concept developed in a world where it referred to human beings, and in a lesser sense, to animals. To simply disregard that entire conceptual history and say, “well it’s doing a thing that looks like thinking, ergo it’s thinking” is the lazy m…

What does it mean? My stance is it's (obviously and only a fool would think otherwise) never going to be conscious because consciousness is a physical process based on particular material interactions, like everything else we've ever encountered. But I have no clear stance on what thinking means besides a sequence of deductions, which seems like something it's already doing in "thinking mode".

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#763

I'm not going to read this -- I don't need to. The replies here are embarrassing enough. This is what happens when our entire culture revolves around the idea that computer programmers are the most special smartest boys. If you even entertain even for a second the idea that a computer program that a human wrote is "thinking", then you don't understand basic facts about: (1) computers, (2) humans, and (3) thinking. Ou…

As someone who grew up in an evangelical household, learned about pareidolia at a young age in the course of escaping it, and who practices Zen meditation: You nailed it.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote your comment one word at a time, with the next word depending on the previous words written. You did not plan the entire thing, every word, ahead of time. LLMs do the same thing, so... how is your intelligence any different?

Tell that to German-speakers, where the verb comes last, and the order of things in sentences is not anything like English, therefore requiring you to think of the entire sentence before you just spit it out. Even the numbers are backwards (twenty-two is two-and-twenty) which requires thinking. Furthermore, when you ask an LLM to count how many r's are in the word strawberry, it will give you a random answer, "think"…

The part about strawberry is just not right. That problem was solved. And I do think it's a stretch to say German speakers think of the entire sentence before speaking it.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#765

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

Code gen is the absolute best case scenario for LLMs though: highly structured language, loads of training data, the ability to automatically error check the responses, etc. If they could mimic reasoning anywhere it would be on this problem.

I'm still not convinced they're thinking though because they faceplant on all sorts of other things that should be easy for something that is able to think.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#766
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen LLMs so many times produce incoherent, nonsensical and invalid chains of reasoning... LLMs are little more than RNGs. They are the tea leaves and you read whatever you want into them.

They are clearly getting to useful and meaningful results with at a rate significantly better than chance (for example, the fact that ChatGPT can play chess well even though it sometimes tries to make illegal moves shows that there is a lot more happening there than just picking moves uniformly at random). Demanding perfection here seems to be odd given that humans also can make bizarre errors in reasoning (of course…

The fact that a model trained on the internet, on which the correct rules of chess are written, is unable to determine what is and is not a legal move, seems like a sign that these models are not reasoning about the questions asked of them. They are just giving responses that look like (and often are) correct chess moves.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But; they don't learn If we took your brain and perfectly digitized it on read-only hardware, would you expect to still “think”? Do amnesiacs who are incapable of laying down long-term memories not think? I personally believe that memory formation and learning are one of the biggest cruces for general intelligence, but I can easily imagine thinking occurring without memory. (Yes, this is potentially ethically very…

> If we took your brain and perfectly digitized it on read-only hardware, would you expect to still “think”? Perhaps this is already known, but I would think there is a high chance that our brains require "write access" to function. That is, the very process of neural activity inherently makes modifications to the underlying structure.

> a high chance that our brains require "write access" to function

There are multiple learning mechanisms that happen on different time-frames, eg neural plasticity, hippocampus are both longer-term processes for memory consolidation. Whereas the content of “RAM” might be better modeled as a set of fast dynamic weights representing ions and neurotransmitter concentrations.

My hunch is that you could model the latter fast weights in volatile memory, but I wouldn’t count these as “modifying the structure”.

Do you have any particular systems in mind where you have reason to believe that permanent modification is required for brains to function?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're actually proving Wittgenstein's point. We share the same physical world, but we don't encounter the same problems. A lion's concerns - territory, hunting, pride hierarchy - are fundamentally different from ours: mortgages, meaning, relationships. And here's the kicker: you don't even fully understand me, and I'm human. What makes you think you'd understand a lion?

Thats only a minor subset of our thoughts. If you were going hiking what kind of thoughts would you have? "There are trees there", "Its raining I should get cover", "I can hide in the bushes", "Im not sure if I cna climb over this or not". "There is x on the left and y on the right", "the wind went away" etc etc etc etc. The origins of human language were no doubt communicating such simple thoughts and not about your…

You're describing perception, not the lived experience that gives those perceptions meaning. Yes, a lion sees trees and rain. But a lion doesn't have 'hiking', it has territory patrol. It doesn't 'hide in bushes', it stalks prey. These aren't just different words for the same thing; they're fundamentally different frameworks for interpreting raw sensory data. That's Wittgenstein's point about form of life.
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