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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#761

Post by zelphirkalt »

gempir wrote: post #682
BrenBarn wrote: post #659

The sticking point for me is the way tools like uv and poetry build everything around the idea of a "project". I don't want a separate environment for every project, and I don't want to start by creating a project. I want to start with an environment that has stuff in it, and I start fiddling around, and gradually something comes together that eventually will be pulled out into a separate project. From what I can see…

This is easier to do with uv than it is with pip. You can create venvs wherever you please and then just install stuff into them. Nobody forces the project onto you, at work we don't even use the .toml yet because it's relatively new, we still use a python_requirements.txt and install into a venv that is global to the system.

Way to go to create non-reproducible results. Basically, nothing production ready is rolling out of that one.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#762

Post by wiz21c »

teiferer wrote: post #686
ederamen wrote: post #517

Uv is so good. I'm a curmudgeon about adopting new tooling, and tried uv with a lot of skepticism, but it was just better in every way. And even if it wasn't so polished and reliable, the raw speed makes it hard to go back to any other tool. Uv combined with type hints reaching critical mass in the Python ecosystem, and how solid PyLance is in VSCode, feels so good it has made me consider investing in Python as my pr…

> But then I remember that Python is dog slow compared to other languages with comparable ergonomics and first-class support for static typing, and...idk it's a tough sell. Case in point: uv itself is not written in Python. It's a Rust tool. It always amazes me when people work on an ecosystem for a language but then don't buy enough into that to actually use it to do the work. Avoidance of dogfooding is a big red fl…

the python interpreter is not written in python :-)

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#763

Post by hexo »

pansa2 wrote: post #410
ModernMech wrote: post #266

Honestly though it's a pretty rough indictment of Python that the best thing to happen in a decade is that people started writing Python tools in Rust. Not even a little Rust, uv is 98% Rust. I mean, they just released 3.14 and that was supposed to be a pretty big deal.

I sometimes wonder if many core Python people don’t actually like the language that much. That’s why (a) they’re constantly reinventing it, and (b) they celebrate rewrites from Python into other languages. Long before Rust, it was considered a good thing when a standard library module was rewritten in C. Compare this to the Go community, who celebrate rewrites from other languages into Go. They rewrote their compiler…

only people who dont like python celebrate this kind of changes.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#764

Post by zelphirkalt »

taftster wrote: post #662
BrenBarn wrote: post #659

The sticking point for me is the way tools like uv and poetry build everything around the idea of a "project". I don't want a separate environment for every project, and I don't want to start by creating a project. I want to start with an environment that has stuff in it, and I start fiddling around, and gradually something comes together that eventually will be pulled out into a separate project. From what I can see…

You can't just create yourself an "everything" environment with UV and then experiment with it? Honest question. I think you're basically suggesting that you'd have a VM or something that has system-high packages already preinstalled and then use UV on top of it?

You can, but an "everything environment" is rarely to be recommended. How to do it: Make uv use the --active environment to install things. Before using uv, activate that environment.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#765

Post by Timsky »

Uehreka wrote: post #677
BrenBarn wrote: post #659

The sticking point for me is the way tools like uv and poetry build everything around the idea of a "project". I don't want a separate environment for every project, and I don't want to start by creating a project. I want to start with an environment that has stuff in it, and I start fiddling around, and gradually something comes together that eventually will be pulled out into a separate project. From what I can see…

This was always my issue with pip and venv: I don’t want a thing that hijacks my terminal and PATH, flips my world upside down and makes writing automated headless scripts and systemd services a huge pain. When I drop into a Node.js project, usually some things have changed, but I always know that if I need to, I can find all of my dependencies in my node_modules folder, and I can package up that folder and move it w…

> demanding new —yes-destroy-my-computer-dangerously-and-step-on-my-face-daddy flags and crashing my automated scripts from last year.

Literally, my case. I recently had to compile an abandoned six-year-old scientific package written in C with Python bindings. I wasn’t aware that modern versions of pip handle builds differently than they did six years ago — specifically, that it now compiles wheels within an isolated environment. I was surprised to see a message indicating that %package_name% was not installed, yet I was still able to import it. By the second day, I eventually discovered the --no-build-isolation option of pip.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#766

Post by zelphirkalt »

matsemann wrote: post #722
BrenBarn wrote: post #659

The sticking point for me is the way tools like uv and poetry build everything around the idea of a "project". I don't want a separate environment for every project, and I don't want to start by creating a project. I want to start with an environment that has stuff in it, and I start fiddling around, and gradually something comes together that eventually will be pulled out into a separate project. From what I can see…

What you describe I think is what most other people hate the most about python. The fact that everything pollutes the global environment, which then becomes a mess of things depending on various versions, which also ends up breaking tools included in the OS and suddenly your whole system is effed.

Exactly, and this is why we use virtual environments. Which then get dumped on by other people. People can't have it both ways, but they already have all the choices in Python's ecosystem. They just complain, because they are not aware how they can do it their way and didn't invest the time to nail down the workflow they like, or their workflow idea is self-contradictory.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#767

Post by forrestthewoods »

BrenBarn wrote: post #659

The sticking point for me is the way tools like uv and poetry build everything around the idea of a "project". I don't want a separate environment for every project, and I don't want to start by creating a project. I want to start with an environment that has stuff in it, and I start fiddling around, and gradually something comes together that eventually will be pulled out into a separate project. From what I can see…

> I don't want a separate environment for every project

That is exactly 100% what I demand. Projects should be - must be - completely isolated from one another.

Quite frankly anything else seems utterly insane to me.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#768

Post by hexo »

thayne wrote: post #657
miki123211 wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we had a language that had the syntax of Python (notably including operator overloading, which is absolutely critical for neural networks, ML, data science and numerical computations), the performance, compile times and concurrency support of Go, the type system flexibility of Typescript, and the native platform integration of C/C++.

Rust doesn't quite hit all of those, but it hits a lot of them. It's syntax is significantly different from python, but it does have operator overloading. It's performance is comparable to go, and has good concurrency support, although it is different than go, and there are still some rough edges with "async" code. Compile times aren't as good as go though. The type system is excellent, although I'm not really sure w…

rust hits none.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#769

Post by gempir »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #761
gempir wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is easier to do with uv than it is with pip. You can create venvs wherever you please and then just install stuff into them. Nobody forces the project onto you, at work we don't even use the .toml yet because it's relatively new, we still use a python_requirements.txt and install into a venv that is global to the system.

Way to go to create non-reproducible results. Basically, nothing production ready is rolling out of that one.

This is what the OP wanted. I don't agree to do it this way.

At work for us we use uv pip freeze to generate a more strict requirements file.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#770

Post by darkamaul »

sanskarix wrote: post #675

[dead]

I think better developer tools tend to compound over time, they raise expectations and push the whole ecosystem forward.

IMO, uv is quickly becoming one of the best reasons to start a new project in Python. It’s fast, and brings a level of polish and performance that makes Python feel modern again.

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