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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#761

Post by 1970-01-01 »

cjbprime wrote: post #721
1970-01-01 wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically an overstatement but not by much. Correctly restated, its highly unlikely these actions were confusing pilots. It's as if you mistook flushing your toilet twice when instead you wanted to turn on the lights in your bathroom.

I don't agree with the "twice". A frequently performed manipulation like the fuel cutoff (usually performed after landing) collapses down to a single intention that is carried out by muscle memory, not two consciously selected actions.

Your opinion is valid but definitely doesn't align with any evidence.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#762

Post by ninkendo »

mr_toad wrote: post #737
ninkendo wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the aircraft being familiar makes it worse: if you're used to going through a certain motion to do a thing, it may be one of things your brain can do without really thinking about it much, which is where the danger comes in. I've engaged my wipers when meaning to shift gears before, in my truck which has a steering column shifter. After driving the truck for years. I have ADHD and I very often let my brain go…

If your wipers had the equivalent of a child safety cap it would be hard to do it accidentally, especially twice in a row.

I firmly believe this is not the case. Putting more obstacles between me and the thing I’m trying to do, just trains my brain at rote performance of the task. It’s still “autopilot” as far as my brain is concerned.

This could be anything: starting a car, taking off a medicine cap, typing my password, clicking around cookie warnings. If I have to do it repeatedly, my brain will be able to perform it subconsciously, and I will do it without realizing it.

For fuel cutoff switches, it doesn’t matter that there two of them in a row. If you cut off both of them every single time, and you fly every day, your brain is gonna automate that task.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#763

Post by ankit219 »

oncallthrow wrote: post #745
ankit219 wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is BBC, they have a history of being uncharitable when it comes to reporting on their erstwhile colonies. Jumping to a conclusion about pilot's fault when the recorded dialogues show both had no idea who cut it off (leaving ground for a possibility of some malfunction) is irresponsible, especially when the report could have been worded better without needing to reach a definitive conclusion. Both pilots have a l…

Where in the BBC coverage are the pilots blamed? Sounds like you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder, and indeed it sounds like you are the one who is biased towards a particular conclusion (namely that the Indian pilots bear no blame).

i see the confusion. Initially the title of the video on BBC youtube channel was:

> BREAKING Air India crash: Pilot cut off fuel to engines - no fault with plane | BBC

and then they changed it to:

> Fuel switches cut off before Air India crash, preliminary report says | BBC News

You can decide. I had noticed it then. It was also noticed by many others as the story started getting traction and there are many x accounts (and probably elsehwere too) which would corroborate the same.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#764

Post by sillysaurusx »

gamblor956 wrote: post #760
sillysaurusx wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, thank you for calling attention to this. You’re absolutely right, despite what others are saying here. That’s why there’s a movement for reforms. Secondly, yes, it was likely a deliberate action to cut off the fuel switches, as you say. You are absolutely right that there’s an epidemic in the airline industry that forces pilots to stay quiet rather than risk their careers if they’re dealing with mental…

Sorry, that conclusion is just silly. I know people in the airline industry (some pilots and a number of flight attendants) and the problem is not that they're forced to conceal mental issues. The problem is that many people in aviation imagine that they need to conceal their problems. And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the…

> And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the opposite.

I have no idea how this video’s chapter 6 can be titled "a call for change" and then you still deny that the video is saying there’s something desperately wrong with the aviation industry. All I can think of saying is that you’re mistaken. It’s proof of exactly what the video is saying needs to change.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I feel bad for all the pilots who have to deal with this kind of attitude about mental health issues, as if suicidal ideation should somehow disqualify someone from working in their chosen profession. People in the military are allowed to feel suicidal. Your doctor is allowed to feel suicidal. The guy next to you on the road is allowed to feel suicidal. But pilots? Nope. It’s treated as this unspeakable awful thing, and you’re forcing people to get "treatment" where they report "yes, that totally worked" (a lie) or else suffer consequences. If you don’t see how backwards that is, no words of mine will persuade you otherwise.

Why argue so vehemently that treatment should be denied to people? That’s what you’re doing by saying there’s no problem and that nothing needs to change. I assure you, the pilot in the video likely knows far better than your friends. That’s why he made the video.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#765

Post by sillysaurusx »

gamblor956 wrote: post #759
sillysaurusx wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary: https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k The whole reason a pilot made that video is because there’s a huge problem in the airline industry right now.

On the contrary, that video actually supports the OP's claim. A pilot with a well-managed mental condition would be allowed to fly. So, a pilot with depression over the loss of a parent would still be allowed to fly. But a pilot with suicidal ideations, or taking hallucinogens, like Emerson from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509 (the flight discussed in the linked video), would not be allowed to fly. And that's exactly the…

I pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44546377 that this is mistaken and why. Dehumanizing someone because they have suicidal ideation is exactly the kind of attitude that puts people at higher risk.

You’re forcing people to pretend like they don’t have suicidal thoughts. That doesn’t work. Attitudes that it somehow does work are backwards.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#766

Post by yuliyp »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #765
gamblor956 wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, that video actually supports the OP's claim. A pilot with a well-managed mental condition would be allowed to fly. So, a pilot with depression over the loss of a parent would still be allowed to fly. But a pilot with suicidal ideations, or taking hallucinogens, like Emerson from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509 (the flight discussed in the linked video), would not be allowed to fly. And that's exactly the…

I pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44546377 that this is mistaken and why. Dehumanizing someone because they have suicidal ideation is exactly the kind of attitude that puts people at higher risk. You’re forcing people to pretend like they don’t have suicidal thoughts. That doesn’t work. Attitudes that it somehow does work are backwards.

It's not dehumanizing them. It's depiloting them. Not everyone should be a commercial airline pilot, no matter how much they may want to be one.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#767

Post by sillysaurusx »

yuliyp wrote: post #766
sillysaurusx wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44546377 that this is mistaken and why. Dehumanizing someone because they have suicidal ideation is exactly the kind of attitude that puts people at higher risk. You’re forcing people to pretend like they don’t have suicidal thoughts. That doesn’t work. Attitudes that it somehow does work are backwards.

It's not dehumanizing them. It's depiloting them. Not everyone should be a commercial airline pilot, no matter how much they may want to be one.

It is explicitly dehumanizing them by saying they’re not allowed to be pilots despite having issues. Claiming that it’s not is again part of the problem.

You can’t imagine what it’s like to worry about losing your career because of something you’re forced to keep secret, and is entirely treatable. That’s the kind of barbarism that future generations will look back on us and shake their heads at.

I hope you never have to worry about being de-yourjob’d. In the meantime, let the people who are worried about it campaign for change.

I imagine women had to face similar discrimination when campaigning to be allowed to fly. There were likely a bunch of people saying that the current system was fine, and besides, they didn’t trust a woman to do the job. Just because we’ve moved from discrimination against sexes to those with mental health issues doesn’t mean the system is perfect.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#768

Post by sgerenser »

manquer wrote: post #720
jltsiren wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what Occam's razor means. It means that after you have exhausted all options to rule out competing hypotheses, you choose the simplest one that remains, for the time being. Consider some explanations that are consistent with the evidence presented so far. And remember that the purpose of the investigation is to come up with actionable conclusions. 1. One of the pilots randomly flipped and crashed the plane…

Given the fly by wire nature of 787 there is an also fourth option. The physical switch was not touched at all , and the software has a bug under some rare conditions which cut off the supply to both engines.

Extremely unlikely, since we can hear the other pilot ask why he turned the fuel switches. If it was an electrical glitch, he wouldn’t be able to see that they are in the cutoff position.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#769

Post by aaronmdjones »

18172828286177 wrote: post #609
testemailfordg2 wrote: post #562

Three things:- 1) Pilot clearly said I didn't do it. 2) Report talks about the second switch being turned off in a second. 3) Known advisory on switches getting flipped. If you see these three together, it becomes easy to deduce that based on point 2, switch was not human induced as the actions required take more than a second. Next the third point, advisory was for this exact scenario which played out, though rare b…

In this phase of flight the pilot’s hands should be nowhere near the thrust levers let alone the fuel cutoff switches. There is no way they could accidentally knock them with their hands.

On the contrary, it's quite normal that the PF's hands are on the throttle levers throughout the climb (until the switch to automation), which are directly in front of the cutoff switches.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#770

Post by aaronmdjones »

comrade1234 wrote: post #112

Why can the pilot shut off the fuel during takeoff?

Engine overheating even on idle thrust (if this happens after V1, you would idle it and continue the takeoff anyway; you are beyond the point at which you can safely abort).

Engine oil leak has drained the oil completely and the engine is about to fail catastrophically (unlikely on takeoff but you never know).

Engine is on fire (out of all of the things that can go wrong with an engine during takeoff, this is very likely).

Engine has blown up (ditto).

Engine is missing from the aircraft (not likely, but engines have fallen from planes on takeoff before).

Debris / Ash / etc is in the engine (not likely).

Severe fuel leak (not something I'd worry about during takeoff).

Probably other reasons I can't think of.

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