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The Demoralization is just Beginning

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Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#761

Post by wesapien »

KaiserPro wrote: post #349

Going back to a gold standard will limit the money supply. This means that there will be less capital for building $thing. A gold standard means that when the economy gets overheated it pops, then contracts and you get deflation. This makes crashes last longer and harder. It requires greater fiscal discipline to overcome. The problem with the USA "empire" is that for a trading empire to work you need a plan, and stic…

This is why America is so schizophrenic with money and government spending. People who behave like they are in a gold standard when it's not and advocate for treating the government spending like a household are so loud. This is not how the system works as described by MMT. The abandonedment of the gold standard is explained by economic concepts like gresham's law and triffins dilemma.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#762

Post by unclebucknasty »

t-3 wrote: post #748
unclebucknasty wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are judging the U.S. in the context of an otherwise utopian world that doesn't exist. Yes, it gets messy. And, yes, United Fruit Company et. al. happened. We've absolutely had government capture and promotion of special interests. But, even these aren't always so neatly separable from U.S. interests, which are not always so neatly inseparable from promotion of democracy. For instance, a weak economy would make it…

I'm not claiming the US is not democratic - by most definitions of democracy, it is. I'm claiming the US has never promoted or protected democracy. I'm not judging the US in comparison to anyone else. I'm judging it in comparison to your statement that it has promoted and protected democracy around the world. US interests justify all kinds of nastiness, sure. But we claim to be civilized, claim to be champions of jus…

>I'm judging it in comparison to your statement that it has promoted and protected democracy around the world

The point I'm making here is that this doesn't always look like we think it should (though it also frequently has). The world doesn't just cooperate. It's a nasty place filled with competing, often hostile ideologies. And sometimes nastiness is required.

>There is no evidence at all...

Of course there is. If I give you examples, you might wave them off as the U.S. merely promoting its interests versus democracy, but these are frequently directly linked. The U.S. does have an interest in promoting democracy in the world, even if there are counterintuitive scenarios wherein we must take a short term approach that reads anti-democratic. For instance, if a candidate were democratically elected, then ruled as a dictator, removing that democratically elected president would conceivably be a democratic action.

Beyond this, the U.S. must protect its interests (and power) if it is to continue wielding influence in the world.

But, it's true that there have also been grave missteps along the way. I want my country to be perfect too. But, alas. Still, I don't believe it's so binary (though I once did).

In any case, we seem to disagree and I'm not sure that this goes much further without us simply repeating ourselves. Thanks for the chat.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#764

Post by Aeolun »

rsanek wrote: post #413
Aeolun wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is very good at this. They’re essentially like “You got someone willing to pay you? Cool, come on in.” Then after 5 years you can (if you want) naturalize, and after 10 you can get permanent residency. No random nation based limits like the US somehow has.

should we be looking to Japan for advice on how to grow an economy?

I think you should be looking to them for advice on how to not grow an economy without having everyone collapse in despair.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#765

Post by cookiemonsieur »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #728
cookiemonsieur wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a coping mechanism that needs to be parroted to keep the people in the west from questioning the status quo. "Look china/russia/iran/india bad ! Sure, we're not doing well and your quality of life is eroding year on year but hey ! In china you can't question tienanmen square so there's that" It's sad, but as long as people continue to believe in this mythology of "absolute freedom", it will continue to work.

I don't know anyone trying to move to china/russia/iran/india. The outflows however continue to be extensive.

A lot of people are moving to Russia China and India from non western nations that use to send their top talents to the EU/US.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#766

Post by gizmo »

energy123 wrote: post #743
gizmo wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe Chinese researchers are incapable of figuring out photovoltaics by themselves? China has first-rate universities and thousands of PhDs in every field imaginable. They can make solar cells without our help. Having access to western research only sped up the inevitable. China has a solar industry today simply because the Chinese government decided that energy production was a top priority. They…

Why construct a false binary between being incapable of figuring it out by themselves and being capable? Its about velocity and magnitude and matters of degree, not this notion of true or false.

Notice that it's the parent who made the binary and totally false claim that "The only reason the Chinese solar industry exists is because of brain drain".

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#767

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

tomhoward wrote: post #355

There's an implicit assumption in the article and the comments here that "brain drain the world" is a free lunch. But does anyone think through to the end-game of that? That when you drain the most smart/productive people away from every other country, all those countries become less wealthy and more dysfunctional, leading to societal decline, poverty, resentment, radicalisation, war, etc? Aside from anything else, t…

>That when you drain the most smart/productive people away from every other country, all those countries become less wealthy and more dysfunctional, leading to societal decline, poverty, resentment, radicalisation, war, etc?

Societal decline, poverty, resentment etc.: why should functional people bear the burden of it? Brain drain happens for reasons beyond the simple need to earn more money, it also happens because dealing with those dysfunctional people is extremely draining at several levels. On a larger scale when putting smart people together - be it at a country level or even at a company level, one achieves things that are not normally not possible, which is a net benefit for the world at large even if it creates some populations that are dysfunctional.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#768

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

flyinglizard wrote: post #410
foven wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More to the point, when you write an article like this foretelling the doom of the american economy, why would you think you are able to brain drain any country? What stops the countries you are trying to drain from offering better incentives to stay?

At this point in time, US is the global leader in personal freedoms, culture and financial opportunities. These are the things people are looking to immigrate towards. Personal freedoms can't be manufactured. They are a product of the underlying system governing a country. The US has very strong institutions and legal framework in the form of the constitution (again, at this point in time; I expect the current admin…

>They are a product of the underlying system governing a country. The US has very strong institutions and legal framework in the form of the constitution

Thought experiment: swap Americans with a country that is dysfunctional, the result would be that there would be only a marginal improvement in the quality of living for the swapped population. On the other hand the originally dysfunctional country with the new Americans occupants will soon strengthen the institutions and legal framework.

The point I'm trying to make is that institutions and legal framework are far less relevant compared to the personal ethics of the population at large.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#769

Post by Gareth321 »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #324
Gareth321 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is explaining a market dynamic, not prescribing a political policy. He's correct: with zero inflation, normal market dynamics means that some jobs become less valuable over time, and others become more valuable. This is natural progress caused by all kinds of factors like scientific advancements. In such an environment, it is very difficult for employers of the now antiquated jobs to cut wages. So they simply cut…

You cant be serious. Inflation is a policy. it is mandated in the fed charter. and at the end of the article, he says "let's have more inflation". he is prescribing it. > rather than firing them Absolutely nuts outcome. why dont we enable capital to be lazy terrible dishonest management instead of having them actually respond to market forces with hard truths and look their employee in the eye and fire their employee…

I strongly disagree with your policy prescription. I would prefer lower unemployment. Workers are still free to leave their jobs and seek out better wages. It's just that they're no longer forced out, and I think that's an objectively better outcome.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#770

Post by giva »

kamaal wrote: post #750
agumonkey wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And further than democracy, the universe doesn't guarantee long-term anything. Sensible regimes (being democracy or else) seems intrinsically more aligned with that. Except maybe clear catastrophes that require "homogeneous" actions / behaviors (like asia approach to the covid 19 pandemic)

Wrote this a while back on this forum. Long term winning has nothing to do with growth. It has more to do with stability . Just don't fight wars and have smooth transition of power. This more or less guarantees winning on the very longer run. You still have gradual decay, which can unfold over centuries, and that is ok, but that is cyclical and you rise back in a century or so. The real issues with the US/West is war…

There is a little issue: If 9 countries want peace and one wants war, you will have a war.
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