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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#761

Post by almogo »

GordonS wrote: post #666
jraby3 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be made more fair if all the hostages were released. Why would international society accept hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, raped and murdered for over a year as acceptable? Israel actually built a lot of the civilian infrastructure, including the largest hospital in Gaza. It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. Why is it acceptable to…

> hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, taped and murdered There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! AFAIK the only known instance of Hamas murdering a hostage was when a fighter lost it after Israel killed his entire family - all the other deaths have been a result of Israeli bombs (because if you want…

Can't believe we're here again.

> There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well!

Hamas literally executed some: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/01/middleeast/israel-gaza-ww...

But yeah, other than that, treated very well!

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#762

Post by vFunct »

Khaine wrote: post #233
vFunct wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> people now recognizing Israel are the bad guys and Hamas are the good guys Hamas kidnapped and tortured innocent civilians, and has help them in captivity for `~18 months, and you think they are the good guys? There are no good guys.

Yes. Those specific people that killed militants and reservists dancing next to a concentration camp are the good guys.

It’s very white-Eurocentric to think of Hamas as the bad guys. The vast majority of the Mideast don’t believr they are

Or do you believe it is acceptable to have a festival next to a concentration camp? The same concentration camp where a few years earlier guards sniped and killed over 200 unarmed civilians from three other side of the fence while video taping and celebrating them being killed and posting on social media said videos.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#763

Post by grumple »

bjourne wrote: post #491
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.

[flagged]

~20k civilians dead in this war (started by the Palestinians, all civilians were collateral damage thanks to Palestinian militants using civilians as shields) vs 12 million killed in Nazi camps. Maybe you shouldn't diminish far greater horrors in order to attack Israel.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#764

Post by kgwgk »

gravisultra wrote: post #296
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

That's not true at all. The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud. It was very much caused by the deliberate provocation and importation of European settlers via Zionism. It's easy to wave our hands and say "it's so complicated!" or "they've been doing this for thousands of years!" but it's not complicated, much like apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not complicated. Colonialis…

[flagged]

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#765

Post by grumple »

GordonS wrote: post #713
Niten wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas is a terrorist, Islamist organization with the explicit goal of genocide against Israelis: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.

Hamas is not an "Islamist" organisation (I hate that word BTW, as it's an Israeli invention to demonise Muslims). The article you linked to is pure propaganda - Hamas' charter changed a long, long time ago. OTOH, Israeli politicians literally say genocidal things on a near daily basis - it's a deeply sick society.

Islamist is used widely to mean Islamic supremacist. And Hamas absolutely is that. There are non-violent Islamists. Hamas is also jihadist, so they are violent Islamists.

Hamas' charter was changed recently when it was rewritten by a UColumbia grad. They still openly talk about destroying Israel and killing Jews. Learn Arabic, they don't use cover words there.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#766

Post by beagle3 »

sgt wrote: post #752
beagle3 wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is true that Israel pulled back from Gaza completely in 2005, removing its settlers in the process. Gaza and the West Bank are distinct. Israel never pulled back from the West Bank, but that part of the occupation is the same size as it was in 1967. The West Bank occupation did not grow smaller (nor did it grow larger - it's the same size). Sadly, Israel does let settlers settle there, but if an agreement i…

At some point - if you let people settle and multiply for decades, it may just be too late. Impossible to remove unless you start using lethal force, which would impact politics and votes.

Well, we have two precedents we can consult.

Israel occupied Sinai in 1967 and had settlements there[0]. Then, following a peace agreement with Egypt, Israel pulled back in 1982, removing all the settlements and settlers, some by force.

Israel occupied Gaza in 1967 and had settlements in Gaza starting in 1968 or so, few at first, and then starting 1978 (iirc) a lot more than a few. In 2005 - which is 37 years ("decades") later, Israel pulled back, removed the settlers using threats of lethal force to do so. And it did, impact politics and votes - those who supported the move mostly thought, up until 7-oct-2023, that it was the right move. And those who opposed it, thought, up until 7-oct-2023, that it will explode in Israel's face at some point. (Whether you consider the latter vindicated or not depends on a lot of things and is not a trivial binary answer).

The "lethal force, politics and votes" requirement did not stop the Israeli government from removing settlers before. Will it stop them in the future? I have no idea.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sina...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#767

Post by surume »

Hamas just changed the terms of the deal, demanding the release of hardened terrorists. The deal will now likely fall apart. They are a terrorist organization, and behave as such. This “deal” is just another avenue to wage psychological warfare, in their view. The war in Gaza will likely continue.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#768

Post by spacephysics »

ta20240528 wrote: post #749
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government All true, very true. Of course the other bunch will slaughter you for drawing a cartoon. I submit that you have a responsibility to be comprehensive when posting.

I submit no such responsibility is required, thats one reason comment threads exist. So others can add to the discussion…

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#769

Post by cnlevy »

bjourne wrote: post #491
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.

[flagged]

Hamas + PIJ had a fighting force of ~45 000 at the beginning of the war.

They chose to fight it in a heavily urbanized area AMONG CIVILIANS. What human outcome would you expect out of the situation ?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#770

Post by grumple »

zazazache wrote: post #49
throwaway7783 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% support ceasefire. 100% agree Israel overdid it. 100% support Hamas must cease to exist. Don't leave that last part out

What is different from Hamas right to exist compared to the IDF or Likud? Hamas certainly has less blood on their hands!

Hamas is a designated terrorist organization by the US, EU, and others. Their stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and their founding charter including language about killing all Jews. They started this war by massacring over a thousand civilians, injuring thousands more, and kidnapping hundreds. They killed people brutally - beheadings with dull tools, rapes, burning people alive. They also continued launching tens of thousands rockets at Israeli civilians for the duration of the war, though it was basically not reported. If Israel did not have the world's best rocket defense, there would be tens of thousands more dead Israeli civilians.

IDF is the military branch of an actual state. Likud is a political party. Neither advocate for indiscriminate killing of civilians (though some Likud politicians might, just like the US or any other nation has crazy politicians).

"Right to exist" is granted either through law or force. Hamas doesn't have law, doesn't exist within a functioning state, and is illegal by the laws of most nations. IDF isn't.

If you actually think there's a moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas, or that Hamas is somehow the moral group here, you really need to learn more. Stop consuming social media, stop reading things on the internet, go buy some books from a diverse array of sources, both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, and maybe you can gleam the truth out of there. It's not a guarantee, but it's your best shot.

I really think the TikTok age has amplified insanity where we actually have people asking, "Why does a military get to exist but not terrorists?".

For anyone who needs a reminder of how this war started (warning, extremely graphic / not suitable for life): https://www.hamas-massacre.net/

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