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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#761

Post by taopai »

DowsingSpoon wrote: post #597

In some states in the US, you can just shoot home invaders. That is, the use of deadly force is appropriate for protecting one’s self and family from a home invasion, and there is no additional duty to retreat from your own home. It’s a shame that the people of Spain live with such little freedom that these bandits are able to basically force people out of their own house.

It's ironic: in the US you have the freedom to kill, but not the freedom to be saved in a hospital. Just the opposite of Spain.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#762

Post by noduerme »

burnished wrote: post #703
noduerme wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your definition, theft of indigenous land would be fine since there were no property laws to violate. Yet it was not fine. That's because theft is a violation of universal moral laws. Everyone knows it is wrong. Justifying it is an immoral barbarism.

I'm curious how you read that as an endorsement for that sort of behavior? Your 'but indigenous peoples' reeks of point scoring behavior. If you wanted to explore that topic you'd be more specific. If you were engaging in good faith you might assume that I'm generally opposed to genocide. Taking an abstract point about theft and property laws to accuse me of endorsing genocide ('immoral barbarism') is not good behavi…

I didn't read it as an endorsement of theft, but defining theft as malum prohibitum, contingent on a time, place and legal system, is a flawed argument. Laws can be wrong. But the fact that a bad law or an unjust system bans theft does not make theft ok. Lots of bad laws enable theft (e.g. those enacted as post-justification for land theft), which also doesn't make it ok. No bad law can sanctify what is morally and universally wrong, and no rebellion against a bad law can sanctify it either. When we say a law is bad we mean: There is a larger moral framework in which it is unjust. Therefore the same is true in resisting bad laws: Resistance can't justify morally repugnant behavior. That was the point I was trying to make.

I didn't pick indigenous land theft to score points, but only because it's the most obvious example of some type of unregulated theft still being universally recognizable as wrong - and it's frequently brought up by many of the same people who make the case that other types of theft are in the service of justice.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#763

Post by taopai »

Pelayu wrote: post #458

I see a lot of people here claiming that the okupas only affect landlords and banks. Here for example is an article in Spanish that tells the account of an 82-year old pensioner who's house was taken from him (occupied) while he was out visiting a friend in hospital. https://www.antena3.com/noticias/sociedad/vuelve-hospital-vi... I myself have also heard from friends in various cities in Spain of neighbour's apartmen…

Antena3, lol! This is one of most sensationalist TV channel in spain.

The media always look for this situations and portray they because are shocking.

This is not okupation, and has nothing to do with the movement.

This laws primary are there to protect families and people who rent.

I know at least 15 okupas, who lived +4 on bank unused, and still unused, properties. This okupas helped to not saturate the market. They all worked in touristic areas where housing is scarce, and this makes hiring people very difficult because workers doesn't have a place to live and rent is crazy high.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#764

Post by tieandjeans »

petre wrote: post #730
misja111 wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the government should make it less attractive for speculators to hold those homes, e.g. by introducing taxes for empty properties. And on the other hand they could make it more attractive for them to rent them out, e.g. by improving owner's rights.

> e.g. by introducing taxes for empty properties So the speculators set up a company, buy the property and list it on AirBnB at several times the market price. Now it's not an empty property, it's a business. Business is slow so they only have to bother with guests during spikes in demend.

To get around this, we'll establish complex municipal regulations around AirBnB, with steeply escalating punitive fines.

https://airbtics.com/airbnb-regulation-in-barcelona/

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#765

Post by taopai »

madcaptenor wrote: post #395

A linguistic question - why is this spelled with a "k"? I assume this is derived from "ocupación" - the "k" looks funny to me as someone familiar with but nowhere near fluent in Spanish.

You are right.

If you okupas you always ocupas. But you can ocupar without okupar.

The k differences the political movement from the physical act of using a property which is not yours. Okupas don't promote squatting in a small owner property. They promote using unused properties from banks.

In fact in Barcelona there are la Oficina d'okupació:

https://radar.squat.net/ca/barcelona/oficina-lokupacio

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#766

Post by taopai »

matt-p wrote: post #221

Can we establish that the squatters are doing this out of economic necessity and not to "profit" (e.g can't afford to rent or own someplace else)? I imagine so as living with no security in an abandoned building with no utilities seems pretty desperate, sub-optimal and sad. If we can then realistically the root cause to this is lack of housing supply. "Just build more f**ing houses" would fix this no?

I know a guy who lived in a unfinished house.

He was like inspector gadget.

He did the whole electrical installation and had a giant water deposit on the basement that he filled once a month with the waterolympics: getting the water from the next street from a fire hydrant. Such a great guy. With a lot of social conscience, firm to his ideals and he worked!

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#767

Post by taopai »

radres wrote: post #313
hichamdoe wrote: post #47

This is bullshit. I'm dev from Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain) and the squatting topic is periodically being pumped up by the same dumb bastards (always the same companies and media). Squatting exists at the city but it is not an issue in the daily lifes of Barcelona and Spain citizens, only for the fucking big owners with more than 10 flats each. Squatting happens because this bastards (big owners) are inflating the fl…

Demand of people is the only way of inflating the prices. The people who would like to live in Spain, both Spanish people and non-Spanish, are the people who make your country as rich as it is. Am I hearing you saying "What rich? we have poor economy". Yeah, prevent people from investing in real estate and you'll be even poorer.

We are getting poorer because people invest in real state to their benefit without adding any social value to our lives. Only to higher our rent and making touristic flats. Which crowds our streets with noise and filth while the benefits are for foreign companies that are prostituting our cities like a thematic park.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#768

Post by taopai »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #443
juststartguide wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common misconception that people don't seem to get (and that most news outlets conveniently forget to report), it's that if someone enters your primary or even second residence, that isn't considered Okupacion, it's considered "Allanamiento de morada" (breaking and entering). Even if you were on vacation for a month. If that happens you call the police and they'll kick them out in 24 hours max.

So it only applies to your third house? Seems a bit strange.

It's not just that.

Morada is any property that you live, use to live or use to do private activities in it.

If you used at least once a year or so, then is morada. Like if it was your primary house.

If you have a semi demolished house, or unused house during years, then clearly is it not a morada. That's the difference.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#769

Post by southerntofu »

hiatus wrote: post #582
southerntofu wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you said is wrong. France, like Spain, has strong residence protection for anyone, including homeowners. So if someone takes your house while you are away it is not legally squatting, but rather homebreaking and they will be evicted without even a trial. If a house you own gets squatted you may stop paying for electricity/gaz/water. But to be honest apart from big corps abandoned buildings, i've never seen a squa…

> So if someone takes your house while you are away it is not legally squatting, but rather homebreaking and they will be evicted without even a trial. At least in the US there have been cases where the squatter forged a lease and showed that to police that came to evict them. With the scant evidence the police would deem it a civil matter and you have to go to court. I'm not sure what the process is in Spain though.

Forging a lease for an empty dwelling is easy. But forging a lease for the owner's residence is much harder. You'd have to get rid of the owner's stuff, make sure the neighbors don't testify that this is the owner's residence, come up with fake papers to prove the owner lives elsewhere.

All in all, i'd be curious if you have an example because that sounds like opinion manipulation from the owners as that case is very unlikely. At least similar cases i've heard about in France have been 100% debunked. It's much more likely the owners live(d) elsewhere and had an empty dwelling squatted.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#770

Post by southerntofu »

ImJamal wrote: post #655
southerntofu wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a legal standpoint, assaulting people is illegal. Assaulting them in their residence (trespassing) could be even more illegal. They definitely could take you to court. From a moral standpoint, do you realize you're advocating for the mafia here? That's exactly what private mafia companies have been doing for years. Rightful owners enjoying their property are already well protected by the law and the police (too…

It is not their residence. They broke in and just moved in. Kicking out people who are trespassing is how you have a safe and lawful society. Allowing private citizens to do whatever they feel like to innocent people is mafia like behavior.

It is their residence. That's the semantic difference between residence and ownership. You may reside somewhere without owning it, and vice-versa.

Now, breaking into people's residence is a different matter, and is already highly criminalized. Laws about squatting and tenants rights don't exist in the void without a reason: they are supposed to be a balance between ownership rights and housing rights. Allowing the real estate mafia to make its own law is not exactly a balance...

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