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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#761

Post by riversflow »

esoterica wrote: post #717
andiareso wrote: post #13

I'm a big proponent of free speech and the first amendment, but I agree with the reasonings for banning it or forcing US owners. China most definitely has their hands in the data that TikTok amasses and given its popularity it's not an insignificant risk to U.S. citizens. We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. It'll be interesting to see what legal challenges come up if the bill pa…

If you truly believe in the principles of free speech, no matter how offensive and evil and cynically motivated, then the logical conclusion of that belief is that adversarial foreign governments have the right to propagandize in America and to Americans. If you abandon your principles the moment someone invokes the foreign menace then you don’t really have principles. People like to think of themselves as being pro-…

I don’t think freedom of speech should be given to any collective. Individuals should enjoy it as an absolute right, but a corporation is a legal construct undeserving of such natural rights.

A similar example, people should be able to freely assemble, corporations should not be able to form cartels.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#762

Post by theturtletalks »

theferalrobot wrote: post #686
theturtletalks wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many times do we see the government trample on our rights behind “safety”? I’m fully with you on this. If TikTok is harmful, spread the word and let people make that decision for themselves. If kids are too small to make that decision, that falls on the parents. Don’t take away my rights because others can’t vet companies and use their brains if they should use the apps these companies put out.

What rights is it taking away? TikTok will still exist, you will still be able to get to it on the internet. All this bill does is force a sale OR prevent American companies from platforming technology from adversarial nations (something every government does all the time... see the US and Huawei or limiting Nvidia exports to china etc). You'll still be able to download the app from the internet (just not an App Stor…

My mistake then, but what’s the point then? Won’t they come for the website next if TikTok doesn’t sell? I don’t even use TikTok but I know this law will be precedence for other laws blocking outside websites.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#763

Post by esoterica »

joenot443 wrote: post #748
esoterica wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that the constitution protects inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government then how can those rights be denied to non citizens? The government gets to decide who is and isn’t a citizen, which would mean they can decide who is or isn’t eligible for so-called “inalienable” rights.

Yes, a government is generally in charge of granting citizenship for the population which it represents. This is a mechanism that seems to work for every functioning country in the world. What's the alternative you're suggesting, exactly?

I don’t know why you are arguing against a phantom position. I never said the government doesn’t grant citizenship.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#764

Post by calibas »

segasaturn wrote: post #700
calibas wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is accusing the CCP of using TikTok to manipulate democracy. TikTok responded by attempting to manipulate democracy. They did they very thing the government trying to ban them is scared of. Doesn't seem like a smart move to me, I guess we'll see how it plays outs

Raising awareness about a bill in Congress and giving US citizens the tools to speak to their representatives about it isn't "manipulating democracy", it promotes democracy. That is a foundational part of how American democracy is supposed to work, the reps vote on bills but the citizens have the last word - if that's so unacceptable that lawmakers would change sides to ban TikTok in response then Americans should st…

In a strict technical sense, you are correct. Anything that encourages individuals to participate in their government is promoting democracy. However, I think it's heavy whitewashing to look at this whole situation and says it's TikTok promoting democracy.

I find it very hard to believe TikTok is doing this being they genuinely want to promote democracy in the US. This threatens to end TikTok's influence over millions of Americans, they have a business/political stake in this. They're encouraging people to contact their representatives, not because it's in the individual's best interest, but because it's in TikTok's best interest. That's why it's manipulative.

Also, I'm of the opinion the foreign-funded propaganda is generally unhealthy for a democracy.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't really want to ban TikTok. I don't trust TikTok, but I also don't want to increase the federal government's ability to censor what Americans can view. In the process of battling Chinese influence, I don't want the US to become more like China.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#765

Post by AniseAbyss »

deciplex wrote: post #664
jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

> I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Chinese approval of their government is much higher than most Western regimes including the US. I think you are right about how we ought to apply the 1st amendment here, but I don't find that Chinese propaganda is any more insidious or pervasive than American. We just manage it differently: in China the state directly controls the media, whi…

[dead]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#766

Post by [deleted] »

kirse wrote: post #553
jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of printing press. No, TikTok is essentially digital opium. And China itself has confirmed that reality by 1) restricting their citizens' daily access and 2) significantly filtering the content they can see on it: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/03/08/1069527/china-ti... It would only be fair of the US to follow China's example of protecting its citizens from numbin…

[deleted]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#767

Post by throwuwu »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #592
Kerrick wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Constitution also says, "The Congress shall have Power [...] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations." Forcing a sale of TikTok so it's not foreign (with a punishment of banning if they don't), especially while making no such law for U.S. controlled competitors, is no more an infringement upon free speech than introducing a tariff or trade restriction on German-manufactured printing presses while leaving domest…

What if EU forced american companies to sell off their stuff to european companies? It isnt that easy.

If they passed a law requiring US companies operating in Europe to divest their ownership in those subsidiaries or be banned from operating there then that would be their right as a government. Isn’t the EU rather famous at the moment for forcing foreign businesses to comply with their laws and regulations? e.g. GDPR

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#768

Post by IncreasePosts »

endisneigh wrote: post #22

Pass a privacy law, stop arbitrarily banning. What exactly would be the justification for forcing the sale rather than passing a law solving the actual problem?

What would the privacy law entail? Would a privacy law even prevent the CCP from pushing content onto every American who uses TikTok?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#769

Post by yalok »

If you try to publish your app in any of the Chinese app stores, you will be required to add an SDK to your app that basically allows them (Chinese government) to track user activity in your app.

This basically means that not only TikTok, but any app originating from China is mandated to have this tracking SDK integrated, and it's a much bigger problem than just a single app...

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#770

Post by shuckles »

yalok wrote: post #769

If you try to publish your app in any of the Chinese app stores, you will be required to add an SDK to your app that basically allows them (Chinese government) to track user activity in your app. This basically means that not only TikTok, but any app originating from China is mandated to have this tracking SDK integrated, and it's a much bigger problem than just a single app...

What are the Chinese app stores? Do you mean the China storefront of the Apple App Store or something else? Do you have any documentation about this?
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