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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#761

Post by [deleted] »

kamaal wrote: post #709
kaba0 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. You are just at the early phase of the project. > Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain My opinion is that Go is too simple, to the point that it hinders understanding and readability. 4 nested loops with random mutability is much worse…

>>You are just at the early phase of the project. Nah. 99% of the code written out there doesn't need layers of indirection, responsibility tossing around, Code splitting across classes, design patterns, inheritance and the class jungle that is common in Java. Rise of languages like Go is simply majority of the people realising when they want X, they are better of writing just X. You don't have to write a generic ver…

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#762

Post by kartoshechka »

_ZeD_ wrote: post #584
iampivot wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Spring Boot with it's 17+ level deep abstractions to Go / gin-gonic was such a breath of fresh air!

With the little difference that spring boot offers you 99% of your needs, both to fetch the data from (sql, nosql, you-name-it), and to offer your interface out (web, rest), and programming style (syncronous, asyncronous), and observability, .... while for go you'll find yourself deep in the mud of choosing what 3rd part library to use for logging and how to make it work with the rest of custom stuff you have to writ…

it's kinda funny to me when people with latest macbooks, loaded with actually useful but comically expensive programs, open up goland that itself has a shit ton of features, to write some error handling in go

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#763

Post by sproketboy »

impulser_ wrote: post #187
northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#764

Post by vmfunction »

kaba0 wrote: post #564
acje wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if replacing the type system in Go with the one in Rust and adding native Actor model support would be doable. Or if GC and compile time would regress too much. Modern languages without good sum types just seems like such a lost opportunity to me.

What would be the point? Why stick with Go if you want so deep-reaching changes?

That what I often wonder, if one is going to start using a new language why go? Rust at least it gave one memory safety and not having to use GC make it more stable usage of resource as the discord article have already pointed out. Seem like go is just google's .NET, every big corp need to have their own language.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#765

Post by midoBB »

winter_blue wrote: post #483
northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

I wonder: are virtual thread at the JVM level? If so, would Kotlin (and other JVM languages) be able to leverage virtual threads to improve (e.g. produce more optimal JVM bytecode) for their async functionality?

It is a JVM level feature but the Scala guys at ZIO are not that excited about it IIRC.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#766

Post by wscp-dev »

fooyc wrote: post #755

The author cites this to justify the need for Records: > Most Java objects set every field to be private and make all fields accessible only through accessor methods for reading and writing. > Unfortunately, there are no language enforced conventions for defining accessors; you could give the getter for foo the name getBar, and it’ll still work fine, except for the fact that it would confuse anybody trying to access…

it's a matter of standardisation again. Java's standard is like C++; ponderous. The record pattern jep indicates in final footnotes that something like unapply may be in the works, so all hope is not lost.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#768

Post by wscp-dev »

sz4kerto wrote: post #601
bsdnoob wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo problem with Java is... JVM because it's quite a resource intensive application itself, memory usage is orders of time magnitude worse than most of the language I've used.

Interesting. A Spring Boot webapp (with the runtime dependency injection framework, etc. etc.) serving some static content and exposing some REST endpoints works fine with 32 MB RAM. Is it really orders of magnitude more than other languages, e.g. will a Go-based webapp consume less than 300 kBytes of RAM?

I do believe that number will go down in the coming releases; things like valhalla will allow us to pack data representations much more efficiently after all. the only things that really benefit from object identity are behaviors, not data.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#770

Post by throy930493 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #724
throy930493 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is a better language, but the JVM is a significantly better ecosystem. Java will always be behind (and type erasure for generics is annoying enough as someone who started in C# that I don't think it will ever catch up) but between hotspot and being the preferred language of 2/3rds of the clouds I think it clearly wins.

type erasure for generics is annoying I too have spent significant time programming in both C# and Java. This complaint about type erasure in Java: When does it affect your daily life? There are so many craft workarounds available now that it hardly comes up anymore. Also, would your opinion of Java significantly change if type erasure was removed or never existed?

I have much more experience in C# then Java FWIW, so you're welcome to take my opinions with a grain of salt. I've had a couple of really annoying errors with Beam serializers that took me way longer to debug then I thought was worthwhile.

I think it is a worse choice, it's too ingrained in the language and ecosystem to change. That and a couple of other nits would likely make me pick Java over C# or Go if I was starting a new project going forward.

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