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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#761

Post by colinmhayes »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #323
buscoquadnary wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this I think it is the end result of globalization. First we could ship stuff overseas, then we could ship jobs overseas, now people are realizing they can ship their house overseas, and Portugal has a much nicer climate and weather than Shanghai so why not move there. Basically with the advent of the internet and the rise in remote work there's no more reason people really feel tied to a pla…

Feels that way too. America’s increasingly tough stance on exports to China are a sign of things to come. I’m not even sure if this Globalization was worth all that much. It’s made some people very wealthy, some people well-off, but its also made lots of people very poor and very angry. I’m okay with living in a world with fewer millionaires but also fewer people sleeping on the streets.

Globalization made every good much, much cheaper. Yes, it made some people rich, and some people lost their job, but everyone benefited from either the cheap goods or better job opportunities.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#762

Post by garyclarke27 »

pnt12 wrote: post #726
garyclarke27 wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, it's nowhere near dire - it's expensive yes, like just about every other capital city - Lisbon is still way cheaper than Paris or London. This poorly written rambling rant of an article has some valid points but no insight. I moved to Cascais near Lisbon 5 years ago because of Brexit and yes property has boomed, like in many other countries but money printing QE is not just a Portuguese phenomena. 10 Years a…

2 objections: I don't think talent is moving in - at least in tech, there are lots of foreign companies opening offices and hiring local talent. And for number two, it seems you're part of the problem the article mentions. You comain about how long it takes to work in a property you're INVESTINF in - but Portuguese people are struggling to afford property to LIVE in. That's the crisis, rich people investing in proper…

The property we invested in is derelict - it is not fit for habitation! When we have rebuilt it it will be in great condition and available for a family to live in. Why is this investment a problem - do you prefer seeing many ruins? I was complaining about the insane bureaucracy we have to go through, before we can even start rebuilding ie rents have risen because of supply problems and is not just a demand problem.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#764

Post by tarakat »

kaashif wrote: post #736
tarakat wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salami slicing. No single step will ever make much difference for the majority of Portuguese, until they suddenly find themselves a minority in their own capital, as happened to the English.

> until they suddenly find themselves a minority in their own capital, as happened to the English When you say "the English" can you be more clear? Are you suggesting it's a problem if Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish people move to the capital of their own country, the UK? I don't think that's what you meant. 44.9% of people in London were white British according to the 2011 census, but 63% were born in Britain. T…

> The only way your comment makes sense is if you're suggesting it's a problem that white British being a minority is a problem.

Why don't you tell me - do ethnic minorities without a country of their own face any challenges or dangers due to that? Is there reason to believe that native Britons won't face those same dangers? Perhaps because they are so beloved by other nations they now share their country with, there are yearly riots of gratitude held in their honor?

They're not even a minority yet, and we already have a preview of what's to come:

RAF ‘Pauses Job Offers for White Men’ to Meet ‘Impossible’ Diversity Targets - https://news.sky.com/story/raf-pauses-job-offers-for-white-m...

BBC bans white people from job - but workforce already reflects country's ethnic make-up - https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/670266/BBC-advert-white-pe...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#765

Post by refurb »

tjr225 wrote: post #747
refurb wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices were dropping before interest rates went up.

It is still one of the most expensive and sought after places to live in the country, and maybe even the world. You can’t just remove all context from reality to try to make your points. You know this. Be a big boy.

Now you’re just desperately pulling things out of the air.

My statement the cycle of movement to urban centers might be reversing, and I used condo prices in SF since pre-Covid as a data point.

You come back with “its still one of the most expensive places in the world”. Then you said “Be a big boy”.

You’ve failed to make your case and resorted to condescending remarks.

Let’s just chalk this up to you failed to disprove my argument and leave it at that? Unless you had more condescending statements to make?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#766

Post by zo1 »

intothemild wrote: post #644
jhugo wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the type of thing that controlling is very difficult and thus expensive. As a result it's done at a pretty minimal level everywhere.

The thing is... it's not actually. If you made a law to force AirBnB to share data on who is making the listing with the government, you have your register of who to tax/etc. You could also make laws to limit the number of properties per person, and if you're even smarter, you could use that in conjunction with a map of relationships between people, so you could limit the number of people putting listings in their fa…

As much as your ideas would work, I don't want to live in the world that you are envisioning in your brain.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#767

Post by zo1 »

ngc248 wrote: post #679
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no western country has tried lowering housing costs yet. And I mean actually lowering housing costs, not just talking about it on TV, posturing, political promises or making stupid mistakes like rent-freezes and such. But blaming the poor young people priced out of their own country for not breeding, and just bringing third world immigrants with no living standards, is much easier than improving the living st…

Its not just lowering housing costs. Raising a child does not just include housing cost, it also includes a ton of other costs, and since families have become nuclear and both parents work, it is hard to birth more children since cost/time that you need to spend on child rearing will be more. What is the solution to this? No idea

Yeah, take it further. Allow single-income households to prosper and be able to afford homes & children. Watch one-parent from each household start flocking to stay at home, maintaining a well-functioning household that's not dependent on external "services", and then having a bunch more than 1.5 kids is a possibility and probably a very appealing thought versus what it is now.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#768

Post by jstarfish »

bieh wrote: post #630
ahepp wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it puts a pretty negative framing on immigration, that it's something you have to buy an indulgence for. Maybe that's true. Being a well paid tech worker who might try the expat lifestyle someday, I'm pretty biased. But I also wonder what it might look like to frame things in a more positive light. Maybe that could be connecting immigrants to jobs making a productive impact in the local economy, or showcasing…

Hey, thanks for the reply! Yeah, absolutely -- with hindsight, the phrasing that I used was far too negative. I suspect I need to go with something very carefully phrased around "helping give back", rather than "you're a terrible person, make recompense for your crimes!", haha.

This is going to sound harsh, but it's coming from a place of astonishment.

To make up for buying your way into a region and contributing to the displacement of locals, you are offering to create an internet platform to solicit donations of other people's money to support a welfare economy.

It's an idea as absurd as Russia funding orphanages for Ukrainian children displaced by war, or patting yourself on the back for resuscitating someone you just tried to drown.

If you feel that guilty about it, leave. Charity from conquerors is not generosity, it is an imposed dependency-- literally the opposite.

Don't feel too bad though. This is the nation that pioneered the global slave trade; they've done far worse to the rest of the world in pursuit of a dollar.

Buying a house and paying above market rate for it is not a crime against humanity you should feel compelled to make amends for. You are already making a landlord and nearby service providers wealthier than they would be without you there. Count your blessings and live your life.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#769

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #734
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans aren't having kids because they aren't having sex drive. They are having sex, just with protection, as they don't want kids, because the job and housing markets are too fucked to support a family without massive stress and anxiety for the parents. Fix those first so we can have a stable income and affordable housing from a young age, and then we'll take off the condoms.

‘Fix the housing market and we will take off the condoms’ is a great t-shirt

Feel free to market that and become a millionaire. Just remember to quote ChuckNorris89 :)

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#770

Post by sagarm »

ghaff wrote: post #372
62951413 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually California natives have one good thing going for them. Prop 13. So if you or your parents have lived in the house for 30+ years you're likely to pay $2K in property taxes on a $1M house (annually). The lack of middle-class jobs is a whole different story.

And that is the flip side to Prop 13, which a bunch of people like to hate on. Absent Prop 13 (for residential properties) a lot of long-term residents would be forced out by rapidly rising property taxes. Which would-be residents may not like but is not at all clearly a bad thing.

> forced out by rapidly rising property taxes.

"Forced out" meaning sell their multimillion dollar property for a massive mostly tax-free profit. Alternatively, they can spend their windfall by using their property as collateral.

These people are in the top 5-10% of Americans by wealth, not some underprivileged underclass.

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