Live data from Hacker News

Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

761–770 of 1001 posts

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger question is whether we should have exclusive schools like MIT. Screening for college admissions made sense a century ago, when 5% of people went to college. Today, not so much. From an undergrad class perspective, the difference between MIT and a better state school is mostly the brand stamp and the admissions department. Why do we want to stamp people with a stamp like "MIT"?

If you want to be brutally honest, because other people in industry have the stamp of "MIT". There will just be natural bias when hearing that a prospective candidate attended your alma mata where you know (in your own personal experience) that the school runs you through the ringer. Nothing more relatable than saying "Hey is Professor Bob still teaching Astro 401? his tests were brutal " and instantly understanding…

Even more brutal honesty: MIT has core requirements that are about the toughest in the nation except for CalTech's. One term of calculus beyond the AP BC sequence, calculus based classical mechanics and E&M, one term each of chemistry and biology. No matter what degree you get, you have to get at least C grades based on mastery, not a curve.

And reading between the lines, it sounds like MIT has another "lost class" or two. A few years after I was admitted to MIT, the Director of Admissions retired and was replaced by a professional in the field. And being a professional he followed the faculty's official findings on how to select applicants and all of a sudden MIT was getting calls from schools asking why their best students were no longer getting accepted while the next tier suddenly were. And rather quickly the physics faculty led a revolt because way too many of their students were having too much difficulty with the above above minimum core requirements.

I got to casually know one of these students, she was very nice and of course smart, but boy did she struggle with the required math based core curricula of her major unlike her female peers from my years and thereabouts.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really understand what you're saying there. There are actively racist institutions now, their systemic racism is affecting people today, and they are continually pushing for more racism. The racists are becoming more emboldened and blatant -- look at California prop 16, there was a push to explicitly repeal the constitutional prohibition against racial discrimination ! And it was only narrowly defeated! Does…

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class No, it was an intentional move to restrict the number of Asians admitted because despite their best efforts to hide it, prestigious universities' data showed systemic discrimination against Asians in the admissions process (see: SFFA vs Harvard). Removing the SAT removes some of the data that opponents can use to sue them. One of the reasons the UC re…

> My hope is that the Supreme Court, now that it's a 6/3 conservative majority, finally strikes down race based "affirmative action". Agreed, and also favouritism for "legacies", children of faculty and athletics (they can get in on their own merit if they have it). This is a rot that seems to be unique to the US. In the pretty much every other country there would be an outrage if someone got admitted because their p…

There are plenty of institutions where "someone got admitted because their parents donated a lot of money" is a fact of life, as natural as rivers flowing south or getting sick from standing in the cold. It's not something you normally brag about in/to the West, and certainly it's very reasonable to object to the practice, but it's not remotely unique to the US. If anything, it's telling that this version is presented disguised, even if it's a well-known disguise at this point.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#764
post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extra-curricular well-roundedness was basically added to separate the well off from the poor

As a general rule, I always look at more subjective measures like extra curriculars and “well-roundedness” with a huge amount of skepticism. Such subjective standards are phenomenal places to hide discrimination and favoratism.

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#765
as an MIT alum, a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT, I applaud this move, but it doesn't get me back to giving.

MIT shouldn't have stopped requiring the tests in the first place, shouldn't have participated in that anti-intellectual "shut down tech" day or whatever that was, and shouldn't have done a dozen other things like cancel speakers to bow to a woke mob.

MIT needs to sign up to the Chicago principles on free speech https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/documents/r...

and MIT needs to stop writing stuff like this (from TFA):

Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT, but we believe it is likely related to the centrality of mathematics — and mathematics examinations — in our education.

IQ science is well established, and it is well known that the SAT is an IQ test, plain and simple. To pretend otherwise is to dissemble, to be anti-science. Hopefully, MIT will save itself, but I'm sadly not expecting miracles.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

Exposure to other areas of interest, like art, music, helps people creatively. Creativity is a part of every discipline.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#767
post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

They sound like dull people.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And young people on here imagine having 2 children 2 years apart. One of them doesn't get to go to college because of covid and the other doesn't get to go because ability didn't matter for a year. EDIT: I hope this never happens to your kids. Beware of being penalized for trying. Is that a lesson you will teach your kids? I'm not "bummed". Read my post with anger. U of MN was not his first choice. It was _fallback_.…

>Try on some shoes.... Imagine putting 30 years of high taxes into a state as a high earner and business owner (that's me). Then imagine that your almamater doesn't accept your kid when your kid is, in fact, a lot smarter than you and has accomplished a lot more than you did by his age. Well, that's the whole point. The establishment doesn't want smart kids that will challenge their kids who got their papers and posi…

Amen.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. For what it's worth, several of my old college friends are heavily involved with extra-curricular programs at the middle school and high school level across a few different states. From what I've observed, your generalization isn't true at all. The extra-curricular programs are actual…

Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.

Why would you say that?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO there is a difference between gaming a test and just getting better at what a test means to cover. For example, programs like Kumon allow students to learn math more rigorously/at a higher level than what they may get exposed to in a classroom. That doesn’t mean they’re gaming the test, they’re just getting a better education. While it’s perhaps unfair that some students don’t get this opportunity, I don’t think…

That would be 30 per category, so 60 points. Which can definitely be the difference between a top university considerign an applicant or throwing the app away. Back in my day when SAT's were 2400, I heard the swing being a difference of 100 points. Since reverting back to 1600 a 60 point swings sounds proportionately similar to 13 years ago. Anyways, I think when people mean "gaming the system", they mean test prep c…

Right. Growing up in Melbourne (Australia) there was a marked difference in the performance of state school and private school students at university. Theory (don't know about studies) was that the private schools were selective about their students, but also held a lot of their reputation (and their ability to justify tuition) on TER (Tertiary Entrance Ranking) scores, and as such, taught their students extremely well "how to get a very high TER", but not necessarily how to be an independent learner - information spoon-fed in classes as such meant that assignment and essay scores were quite a bit higher than those in state schools, where there wasn't the individual and personalized attention available.

Once those students got to university, while the state school students were used to conducting independent research, having no-one who particularly cared or was going to crack the whip on assignment turn-in ("You're adults - turn your work in or don't. Not my problem."), and such thrived, while many private students found themselves at a loss. I remember many questions about elementary "Well, how would I go about researching that/studying this/doing that" in my first year of university that were along the lines of this theory.

Post reply on HN