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The Framework Laptop is now shipping

frame.work

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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#761
post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredibly arrogant to assume that the only reason why people might come to a different conclusion from you is that they've been manipulated into thinking that way through marketing. It's simply impossible that the indoctrination only occurred to other people and not yourself, right? Your entire argument seems to be that "not every manufacturer's top of the line devices matches my vision for what is an ideal dev…

I never recall being "so vehemently against allowing other people to make their own decisions". I also am not under any delusions that I have some unique ability of being immune to marketing. Nobody is a moron here and in reality the only way to truly be immune to such things is being literally brain dead. Most people are too busy to absorb tonnes of domain specific knowledge of often questionable relevance to their…

> Thinner devices are better up to a certain point, no argument there. However, it does start leading to usability and maintainability problems past a certain threshold. We have definitely reached and passed that threshold for many devices.

This is entirely subjective and I disagree. As do many other people. Some people want chonky 17 inch gaming laptops and other people want 12 inch macbooks and some people want something inbetween. Some people want products in form factors that don't even exist. I personally want a macbook with an ergonomic keyboard built in! But that's just me talking about what I want. The market for laptops is large enough to sustain a huge degree of choice, but you are insisting that there is an absolute limit on form factors as decided by... you? If not by you, then by what? The government? A standards committee?

> Customers don't exist in isolation, if you are locked in to the Apple ecosystem, you're stuck with their decision to ditch the headphone jack unless if you want to stick to phones before iPhone 7.

No one is "locked" into the Apple ecosystem. Not even remotely. You're right, if you want a headphone jack on an iPhone you'll have to live with using an iPhone 6s or earlier. It's fine to want a headphone jack on your modern iPhone, but that is entirely different from you not having a choice. There are markets where people don't realistically have a choice, but smartphones and laptops definitely aren't those markets.

> Feel free to strawman this as me claiming people are morons but for most normal people not preoccupied with tech, these assumptions are reasonable.

The entire premise of your argument is that consumers need to be protected from manufacturers. Sometimes, I would absolutely agree with that. But with laptop form factors? Or not having a headphone jack on every single smart phone that's out there? That's absurd. If someone buys a Samsung phone and finds out only after buying it that it doesn't have a headphone jack, there's plenty of actions they can take post-purchase if they find that aspect of their new device untenable.

> Also, pretending like blatantly unpopular decisions like removing the headphone jack and expandable storage are somehow in demand based purely on continued sales figures is stupidly reductive.

Is it actually blatantly unpopular? Are you sure this isn't just the false consensus effect coming into play for you? As I previously mentioned, for things like the headphone jack there are a ton of options with top of the line specs out there. Purchasing decisions are always about compromise and not every niche is always going to be accommodated by the market. My ergonomic keyboard laptop still doesn't exist, despite me very much wanting it to. I have plenty of fancy headphones I can't use with my phone without an additional external DAC. I guess that sucks, but given how I use my phone, it has had almost zero impact on my life. For people that find that feature indispensable though, then they will probably also have to think about their purchase and will rightly be upset that one of the features they valued in the lineup of phones they've been buying isn't there anymore. I encourage those people to be loud about it, just as you are. That's part of this whole market thing, and there's plenty of cases where people's voices have absolutely made a big impact on the decisions made by shortsighted companies. Just don't expect everyone to fall in line with you.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#762
Thinkpad X1 user here, but would change to the framework as it is upgradable. My problem is the black lines between the exchangeable port - why not just make a black / matt black version?

These exchangeable port look so big not giving the choice to have 2 USB C, 1 USB a and 1 Hdmi. That would be my min configuration.

Cheers from switzerland (swiss german keyboard necessary;))

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Apple even have third-party batteries in their supply chain (installed by an AASP), the printing of the warnings on the cells and the PCB date code look very suspiciously shanzhai. Yet Apple Support were able to confirm that the order number is real and the part came from them. They charged me $600 for it too. It'd better be reliable, unlike the $100 third-party one that idles at 12V, and a voltage spike whe…

Do you live in a city without an Apple Store? MacBook battery service is $199 USD for their most expensive models: https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service I paid exactly $288 SGD to get my battery replaced at the Apple Store here in Singapore.

I'm in Auckland, and there's no Apple Store in New Zealand. The $600 price is in NZD, too, which means $418 USD.

It's not possible to replace only the battery - an AASP will replace the whole top case. I also think it's more expensive for older models, because the parts are not easy to find for a 2014 computer.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#764
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because I'm often looking at business-oriented laptops as a consumer, but I usually find the RAM and storage to be on the low side compared to the CPU specs. I don't need a top-of-the-line i7 CPU (the improvement when going from e.g. an i5 usually isn't enough to really matter), and the premium you pay isn't negligible. On the other hand, the lower-end models that don't splurge on an i7 and come with a mid…

Supporting tons of slightly different configurations is an impediment to efficient operations though. There’s some logic to doing things that way.

If some of the components such as RAM were made replaceable, that wouldn't be the OEM's problem. They could still ship only a few configurations. When you decided the original RAM or storage isn't enough, you'd just ask your local shop to upgrade.

I'm not even asking for upgradeable CPUs or GPUs. Those could be a bit complicated on laptops due to chipset compatibility, power and thermal design issues, etc. But RAM is relatively cheap, can be made relatively easy to replace, and is a common thing to run low on. The same pretty much goes for storage. It seems weird and counter-productive to have components like that be soldered in and non-replaceable even by a professional.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#765
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soldering is not a problem. Your average tech should be able to rework most of the things, maybe except BGA stuff. Problem is no access to spare parts.

Almost everything is BGA now, including RAM and data flash chips. Just bios flash chips are still often (not always) SOIC. BGA soldering is possible with more expensive IR or convection-based stations and a bit of skill too. But yes, parts are often not available at all or from unreliable sources with dubious quality.

Plenty of QFN chips that die often e.g. charging chips. They are extremely easy to replace.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#766
Hey guys, love your idea. Just a question about the keyboard. Any particular reason why the keys |\ are making the Enter key smaller and not the left Shift? Personally prefer a big enter than a big shift. I don't have issues finding the small shift, but I do have trouble finding the small Enter without looking at the keys.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#767
post #594
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, check out reviews of the Framework Laptop for a first-hand illustration of this effect. They seem to be getting 40-50% lower battery runtimes than laptops with comparable specs. That's example the problem — of you design for modularity, you have to leave some optimizations on the table.

The battery impact for us at this point is likely more a factor of additional firmware and driver tuning that we need to do. We've tested to 10-11 hours in MobileMark 2018, but have actually seen video playback runtime (which should be a lighter load) drop below that due to some audio driver issues that we're working through. There is certainly some impact to using DDR4 instead of LPDDR4, but we believe it is still t…

How about standby time?

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#768

I hope you guys slay the market and are able to keep up with the demand that is coming at you. I hope this is the Tesla moment for the consumer electronics industry where the incumbents are forced, through the hubris yet popularity of an upstart, to start innovating again and doing what is good for humanity rather than peddling incrementally changed products each year that are designed to become obsolete within an ev…

The reality is that this will be a niche product that gets almost no mainstream adoption outside of a small tech bubble, like the Fairphone.

For me, the Fairphone would be a no-brainer if they sold outside of Europe. Seeing as how the Framework laptop doesn't have that constraint, it at least has a leg up in terms of customer base.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#769
post #714

There really needs to be an option to include Linux or even just no OS. It's really frustrating to have to pay the Microsoft tax for something that's supposed to give me a choice and modularity.

We agree! The Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes without an OS or OS license: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition

Okay this is a really awesome project. Thanks for the info.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#770

This looks really great, with some good choices for my kind of use - 3:2 screen, 1080 webcam, better than normal travel on the keys, and being able to easily upgrade memory and storage is a big deal. The reviews seem to be finding concerns with thermals while battery life and overall performance seems pretty so-so. I expect that battery life and performance could be improved through upgrading in the future, but it se…

Interesting that that is a good choice, a webcam and a screen that can’t display its images.

Yeah, a webcam is generally for people on the other side of the video call, not for yourself.
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