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“About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

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Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, 100 thousand percent agreed with this. I'm not sure why this seems to have escaped the notice of a lot of the discussion here. If you suddenly are confronted with the fact that the company you worked for isn't what you thought it was, you're left with a pretty significant choice to make. If I had something like that happen to me, I wouldn't have needed the severance to bolt.

Easier said than done. If it was me I would certainly think three times before quitting over this.

I wouldn't quit over this, but if I was offered six months salary to leave like they were I'd go. It's free money and the job market is great.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#762
post #729

As an European. I don't get this. So, employees create a list for making fun of people. Employees start to fight each other because they take offense. Company states at work, you're supposed to work, not to discuss politics. Th bad actor is the company so we all leave. (??!!!) Honestly, I don't get it. I think it is a cultural thing in the US, due to the long term racism issues ,etc. And how extremely easy is for Ame…

You missed a midpoint here, when employees stated that the list could be racist towards people with Asian heritage, the cofounder doubled down on it, claimed that only 10% could be, and well actuallyed it all and then shut down any communication or talk about it. It was crappy management that didn't listen to problems

Sorry, I think that's the right thing to do. And should have been done a lot erlier. Like 10 years ago when the list first started. And I'd also consider firing everyone that contributed names to that list, and that I can find public conversations making fun of people names. I don't care if they are male, white, black or whatever. That doesn't matter. Making fun of peoples names, weight, religion or whatever is wrong. No discussion. You're fired for this.

This is the real shameful thing here, from my biased european point of view. This is the intolerable part.

Now, shutting these discussions off *from work* is the right thing to do in my opinion. Because they literally have no end, and the company is a business, which needs to build products, which needs to sell, so you have your money. If you spend your day discussing politics, you don't make money.

Do you want to discuss politics? Do you really want to discuss these societal problems? I'm all in for it, lets grab a beer at 6am pm at the pub across the street and come up with a solution for these problems. Let's found a political party or an association or whatever we want to do to fix problem.

At least here, in europe, the moment you propose to do these things out of work hours, you 1) See 80% lose interest in their principles and prefer to go home and enjoy their kids and 2) You get to meet with the 20% people with the real interest in fixing things for a better world.

I insist in my opinion. It is not that these things should not be talked about, dismissed, or whatever. These are important things for the future. It is that your workplace *is not* the place for this.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#763
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our experience when we issued our "No Politics / No Religion" policy at work was very positive. The few people who had an issue with it, subsequently quit or were terminated, and many of their co-workers actually thanked us afterwards for it. We didn't have to pay them to leave. One tried to use the company social media accounts to advance her politics, so we fired her, and the other person became frustrated that she…

Why not just... manage people well? No need to make it no politics/no religion at work. Endless talking about keto or veganism or BeachBody or CrossFit or vaccines or children or being anti-child or emacs or vim or whatever can be just as divisive and counterproductive if it's not managed . Lots of people are assholes or misinformed about a lot of stuff. Big deal. Manage. That's the active part of the word "manager".…

> Why not just... manage people well?

This feels like a statement along the same lines as "just don't be poor".

If it's so easy to manage, how come so many people screw it up?

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It’s about professionalism. Flame wars at work create a hostile environment where quiet voices are silenced. It’s the same reason HN bans political flame wars.

DHH is the guy who defended porn as a suitable metaphor for a CouchDB talk. I don't think professionalism is his north star.

He's Danish. Danes are wonderful people but they can be very blunt.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#765

I don't think this is really about making fun of people's names, or holocaust references. It's about power. The managers at basecamp were unhappy that their employees asserted power over them in the workplace, and decided to assert their own power in turn over what they view as their personal fiefdom and retract some of the freedoms they had so graciously granted their workers, because those ungrateful workers actual…

Agree. If only for: > Hansson’s response to this employee [that apologized for participating in the list] took aback many of the workers I spoke with. He dug through old chat logs to find a time when the employee in question participated in a discussion about a customer with a funny-sounding name. Hansson posted the message — visible to the entire company — and dismissed the substance of the employee’s complaint. (Fr…

I agree that this is bad.

However, I have to say that if I had stated "Yes, I'm embarrassed that we didn't put a stop to this list far earlier." and then some employee kept objecting, referring to the pyramid of hate and genocide and all that and I knew that said person had participated in the making fun of names themselves, I would be tempted to call that out as well.

That does not make it right and it certainly shouldn't have happened publicly but I don't think it reveals quite the character flaw that some seem to think it does.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#766
post #729

As an European. I don't get this. So, employees create a list for making fun of people. Employees start to fight each other because they take offense. Company states at work, you're supposed to work, not to discuss politics. Th bad actor is the company so we all leave. (??!!!) Honestly, I don't get it. I think it is a cultural thing in the US, due to the long term racism issues ,etc. And how extremely easy is for Ame…

You completely omit the company's actual response. If the company had shut down the list as being unprofessional and that "work is for work" we wouldn't be here. So I don't really get your point. Are you saying in the EU that if such a list were circulating, the business would take a stance that the list has a place in the workplace? That seems to contradict your statement that "work is for work" And, honestly, mocking your customers even if it isn't offending employees seems like something management should discourage.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#768
post #729

As an European. I don't get this. So, employees create a list for making fun of people. Employees start to fight each other because they take offense. Company states at work, you're supposed to work, not to discuss politics. Th bad actor is the company so we all leave. (??!!!) Honestly, I don't get it. I think it is a cultural thing in the US, due to the long term racism issues ,etc. And how extremely easy is for Ame…

You completely omit the company's actual response. If the company had shut down the list as being unprofessional and that "work is for work" we wouldn't be here. So I don't really get your point. Are you saying in the EU that if such a list were circulating, the business would take a stance that the list has a place in the workplace? That seems to contradict your statement that "work is for work" And, honestly, mocki…

> If the company had shut down the list as being unprofessional and that "work is for work" we wouldn't be here

Ok, I assumed this was done and part of all the changes they just did. Wasn't it? Are they still sharing the list around?

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#769

I don't think this is really about making fun of people's names, or holocaust references. It's about power. The managers at basecamp were unhappy that their employees asserted power over them in the workplace, and decided to assert their own power in turn over what they view as their personal fiefdom and retract some of the freedoms they had so graciously granted their workers, because those ungrateful workers actual…

He’s now complaining about cancel culture on Twitter, which is extremely political.

Not defending the founders, they sound like tools. But it's not hypocritical to be political on your personal social media but apolitical at work.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#770
To be honest, I'm a little surprised at how surprised people are by the number leaving. Not passing a value judgement here, I have no dog in this race, I'm just surprised. They've made a significant cultural change (deliberately), and there's a big turnover. And they made this turnover very easy (even attractive) to do, which can only be because they thought it would be a good thing. Say what you will about them, they aren't stupid - there's no way they didn't fully expect a big departure with a carrot that big. Big turnovers during big changes aren't uncommon. If we were talking about an acquisition, turnover of 1/3 wouldn't raise an eyebrow. The place I was at during an acquisition turned over 80% in a few months - that's big! My partner is a civil servant, and when there's a change in government, this kind of mass exodus in non-elected positions is considered par for the course. I imagine they're completely fine with the outcome and decided it was time to clean house. It's not like they're going to have a hard time hiring.
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