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Changes at Basecamp

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Re: Changes at Basecamp

#761

Post by educaysean »

cutemonster wrote: post #745
educaysean wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion is valid regardless of your privilege. When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. Hope that made sense.

It sounds to me as if you think someone who hasn't been discriminated against, cannot have any meaningful thoughts. As if a social worker could only help out with problems s/he had experienced him/herself already. > Hope that made sense. A bit, not that much

You can put words in my mouth all day but here is exactly what I wrote.

> When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination.

We all appreciate attempts to understand and empathize with us. You can go very far by talking with us and trying to place yourself in our shoes, but we don't appreciate it when you talk over us, attempt to silence our voices, or, case in point, put words in our mouths and exaggerate our points beyond recognition.

Please try and engage this topic in good faith and not through pedantics and wordplay. If you fundamentally disagree that the victims of discrimination should have the loudest voice in the matter, I'd love to talk further.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#762

Post by xpe »

jdale27 wrote: post #732
xpe wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling benefits "paternalistic" is both loaded language and inaccurate: > paternalistic : relating to or characterized by the restriction of the freedom and responsibilities of subordinates or dependents in their supposed interest What restriction do these benefits impose? Let's just call them benefits .

From the article: > 2. No more paternalistic benefits. For years we've offered a fitness benefit, a wellness allowance, a farmer's market share, and continuing education allowances. They felt good at the time, but we've had a change of heart. It's none of our business what you do outside of work, and it's not Basecamp's place to encourage certain behaviors — regardless of good intention. By providing funds for certai…

I understand the authors think there is a difference.

However, I don't see a significant difference between 'traditional' healthcare and preventative healthcare (e.g. a gym membership and healthy food).

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#763

Post by xpe »

xpe wrote: post #687
Spooky23 wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have worded that differently. Work isn't college. Once you get beyond a certain size, by making a public debate and exploration of stuff that isn't work a thing, you're going to go down rabbit holes that probably aren't particularly healthy for the organization. That's where the whataboutism comes in. My personal preference is for my colleagues to behave in a manner of mutual respect. I get to know my immedi…

> That's where the whataboutism comes in. I'm not following your use of the word. I think we may have different ideas about what it means. From Wikipedia: > Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.[1][2][3] Where did tyingq say someone…

I'll read feedback in the form of comments. Indirect feedback by way of the down arrow will have no effect whatsoever on my views. So, if you want to persuade, use your words.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#764

Post by throwaway0xc »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #757
throwaway0xc wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strawman is so huge it experienced autoignition. >There’s a long-standing company rule that anyone named Bob has to eat lunch sitting on the floor. Your logic breaks down in your first sentence. No one is gagging company internal politics that pertains to their corporate charter and mission, rules, regulations, etc. Quite the contrary, they're actually opening that up and flattening the hierarchy. If anything yo…

It's not a straw man, because the rule itself isn't germane to the discussion. I just picked one in which it’s clear that the “default” state is unfair. > It's not limited to any one side, which de fact makes it neutral. QED. The gag policy in my analogy is not limited to any one side. According to your reasoning, that de facto makes it neutral.

>It's not a straw man, because the rule itself isn't germane to the discussion.

It is a straw man because internal company dealings in your example is something that they explicitly allowed to be discussed.

>I just picked one in which it’s clear that the “default” state is unfair.

Yes, and the reason the Bobs have to sit and eat on the floor is because when they used to eat on the table, they'd kill a baby before every table meal. The "default" state is fair.

The fact of the matter is multiple different "default status quos" exists.

>The gag policy in my analogy is not limited to any one side.

Except the straw man because internal company dealings are not gagged.

>According to your reasoning, that de facto makes it neutral.

Yes, external politics not related to work are gagged, which de facto makes it neutral.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#765

Post by eddof13 »

agd wrote: post #11

Think we'll see a lot more companies coming out with statements like this. Who wants their work slack to look like the worst parts of Twitter and Facebook? With employees cancelling each other and demanding they recognise various political points? Not me. You can tell there have been a lot of difficult discussions with various employees behind the scenes. It's all a distraction. Work should be about work.

Coinbase and Basecamp are now certainly on my shortlist of companies that I would consider working for now, hoping for more like this

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#766

Post by jakelazaroff »

throwaway0xc wrote: post #764
jakelazaroff wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a straw man, because the rule itself isn't germane to the discussion. I just picked one in which it’s clear that the “default” state is unfair. > It's not limited to any one side, which de fact makes it neutral. QED. The gag policy in my analogy is not limited to any one side. According to your reasoning, that de facto makes it neutral.

>It's not a straw man, because the rule itself isn't germane to the discussion. It is a straw man because internal company dealings in your example is something that they explicitly allowed to be discussed. >I just picked one in which it’s clear that the “default” state is unfair. Yes, and the reason the Bobs have to sit and eat on the floor is because when they used to eat on the table, they'd kill a baby before eve…

Okay, so let's imagine it's a societal norm that Bobs eat on the floor rather than a company rule. A group of Bobs are agitating for change, so I institute a gag policy on the topic. Neutral?

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#767

Post by bart_spoon »

educaysean wrote: post #723
ryandrake wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even understand what "privilege" means anymore. I used to, but it now just seems to be a word that gets thrown down to try to end the conversation, whenever someone's arguing with a white guy. How did we get to this point where you can't even have a valid opinion about something if you're coming from some position of privilege?

Your opinion is valid regardless of your privilege. When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. Hope that made sense.

> Your opinion is valid regardless of your privilege. When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. Hope that made sense.

It doesn't make sense. You are essentially if you are non-minority, your opinion should be ignored unless its in-line with the opinion of those in the minority. How is that respecting an opinion as "valid"?

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#768

Post by bart_spoon »

peteretep wrote: post #486
koonsolo wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying women and men the same for doing the same job?" and "are our recruiting practices leading to a non-diverse workforce and missing out on great people who should work here?" and "what problems does our company sole, and for whom?". These are really important questions. Why wouldn't you want to bring them up at work? I really detest such things, and the "problem"…

> I don't give a fuck Some people would say you have the _privilege_ to not give a fuck

"Privilege" has just become a rhetorical get-out-of-jail-free card for shutting down any argument with no actual substance.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#769

Post by bart_spoon »

exegete wrote: post #110
SergeAx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about custom keyboards, sail racing, gym routines and upside of hiring a personal trainer, travel, 3D-printing, I can go on forever. I believe it is fundamentally possible to have an interesting and relaxing conversation with coworkers and not to touch political topics.

What you described is talking about personal interests and activities, and I agree that is the kind of stuff that is easy and fun to talk (and hear) about with others. I’m starting to think many people don’t have personal activities and interests and don’t know what to fill in small talk with other than what they saw on social media or the news.

Or rather, an increasingly large number of people's personal hobbies essentially consist of reading, tweeting, blogging, and talking about politics.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#770

Post by NeutralCrane »

FemmeAndroid wrote: post #412

I found this Twitter thread by a Basecamp employee quite revealing about what did and did not happen in the lead up to this. https://mobile.twitter.com/conormuirhead/status/138689059590...

Without seeing the actual discussions themselves, I don't believe anyone's personal account of what happened. Every single person I've ever encountered that fit the bill of being politically obsessive/extreme seemed completely incapable of recognizing that fact, and always framed their conduct as completely unremarkable.
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