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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#761

Post by TinkersW »

xioxox wrote: post #491
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

Yes, reading this thread as someone from the UK makes me realise the US is very different culturally from the UK. I'm sure the proportion of people for whom religion is important in their lives is much much smaller in the UK than the US. I think most British people only encounter religion at Christmas and weddings, unless they're of a religious minority group.

It isn't evenly distributed and the US doesn't have one culture, plenty of Americans never encounter much religion, particularly in the Western US which is overall less religious.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#762

Post by sharkweek »

nyghtly wrote: post #666
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

Here's the full speech for anyone who took an interest in this excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI In my opinion, it's one of the best graduation speeches of all time.

I have absolutely tried to hard wire the "choose how to think" into my brain. It is never easy.

His example of the swerving SUV racing through traffic maybe just possibly driving that way because of a personal emergency stuck with me. I don't have to assume the worst of people who are acting in a way I don't agree with, and to consider this anytime I'm getting worked up over something can be quite helpful.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#763

Post by [deleted] »

wussboy wrote: post #255
tyxodiwktis wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t necessarily true outside the US. The running joke about Greeks is that they are 98% Greek Orthodox (official stats from a while ago) and 40% atheist. You might be atheist and communist (a fairly common combo in Greece) but will still probably roast a lamb on Easter with your family.

I agree. I first learned that Christian Atheist was possible in an Anglican Church in England.

[deleted]

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#764

Post by DoingSomeThings »

wussboy wrote: post #159
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

No. And yes.

I think there are more of you floating in the pews with you than you may expect. As I've grown older it's been hard to belong to a dogmatic religion. But I miss those same things you describe. I too attend on occasion for those exact reasons.

It was startling to me, however, to realize that I'm not alone. A large % of people there in the church find value even if they don't actually believe. And that's a strange comfort that let's me continue to appreciate the tradition without claiming the title.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#765

Post by seppin »

temp8964 wrote: post #722
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

Unless you can elaborate and distinguish different kinds of "worship", your accusation is overblown. Maybe he used this word simply because it was the best choice available to capture and communicate the underlined meaning?

I think you are right and I think people are attacking the quote because he chose to "attack" atheism.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#766

Post by joshuacc »

ur-whale wrote: post #676
cjameskeller wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This was a major component in my switch from Protestant/Baptist to ("Greek"/Eastern) Orthodox. Having thousands of years of prior religious & philosophical discussions to draw from, as well as the experiences of people living under all manner of political regimes provides a much-needed grounding against whatever may be the current, trendy topics. And a direct result of that history is that the Church mandates…

This approach, "religion as an operator's manual to living one's life" is one of the very rare arguments in defense of religion I can vaguely resonate with. Unfortunately this argument entirely fails to support all the rest of the luggage, especially the metaphysical hokum: you can perfectly chose to live your life according to a set of rules that will help you (and others) without having to justify it via the existe…

> some bearded dude sitting on a cloud

You do realize that this idea is explicitly condemned by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#767

Post by deergomoo »

hudon wrote: post #753
ur-whale wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach, "religion as an operator's manual to living one's life" is one of the very rare arguments in defense of religion I can vaguely resonate with. Unfortunately this argument entirely fails to support all the rest of the luggage, especially the metaphysical hokum: you can perfectly chose to live your life according to a set of rules that will help you (and others) without having to justify it via the existe…

> bearded dude sitting on a cloud That's a strange straw man. No God-fearing person I know believes in such a thing. God is not a being, but rather is _being itself_. In fact, when Moses asked God what his name was, God replies something like "I am who am". If you prefer an Aristotelian frame, he is the "unmoved mover" [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

If you search Google Images for “god” there’s an awful lot of bearded men sitting on clouds, so it must be at least a somewhat popular belief

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#768

Post by seppin »

ur-whale wrote: post #706
antonzabirko wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty straightforward to me. Worship here just means prioritize.

Feel free to assign the meaning you find most convenient to random words, but the fact is, we are in the thick of a thread about religion, in which Wallace's excerpt is being used to make a point ...

It's pretty clear what his intentions were and what he was trying to say. It's not like he gave the term a completely unrelated meaning. "What one focuses on everyday and builds your sense of self and worth around" is a very good definition of worship, imo.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#769

Post by bitshiftfaced »

whalesalad wrote: post #134
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. And it's not necessarily a bad thing when you frame it as a cultural institution. For many people, they grew up with the church and its traditions. Their families and friends share the same traditions, and it's part of their identity. They may not believe in the supernatural stuff or ev…

It becomes a problem though when you don’t subscribe or even understand the core tenets of your faith - and yet it is your identity. So you vote with your friends and family even if you don’t know what you’re voting for. And when you feel your tribe being threatened, you get defensive and defend your tribe - even when you don’t know what you are defending. That is why the US has become so divided recently. That is wh…

Sure, there are some people out there like that, and it's true for every culture, and it's true that people ought to think for themselves.

I think we can agree that religion and goodness can run orthogonally, but let's not be so paternalistic to assume that people are unable to participate within a community's cultural traditions without sacrificing their ability to think for themselves.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#770

Post by ur-whale »

hudon wrote: post #753
ur-whale wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach, "religion as an operator's manual to living one's life" is one of the very rare arguments in defense of religion I can vaguely resonate with. Unfortunately this argument entirely fails to support all the rest of the luggage, especially the metaphysical hokum: you can perfectly chose to live your life according to a set of rules that will help you (and others) without having to justify it via the existe…

> bearded dude sitting on a cloud That's a strange straw man. No God-fearing person I know believes in such a thing. God is not a being, but rather is _being itself_. In fact, when Moses asked God what his name was, God replies something like "I am who am". If you prefer an Aristotelian frame, he is the "unmoved mover" [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

> God-fearing

I rest my case.

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