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The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

jarednelsen.dev

761–770 of 851 posts

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#761
post #599
post #279

A few months ago I interviewed with Major CDN Company for a front-end dev position. They sent me a take-home React/NextJS project stub with dependencies and such already defined, and instructions to finish building out the full app. "Perfect!", I thought. No stage pressure, plenty of opportunities for going an extra mile. They encouraged me to get creative and I did; it met all the requirements and then some. I proud…

I think the situation was unwinnable. You've exposed their incompetence. Rightly or wrongly, most people can't stand being criticized. If there's a solution to that one it's a diplomatic one, not a technical one. Be similarly wary to point out bugs in code reviewer's code. Unless you have a healthy professional atmosphere and multiple reviewers, your best course is to manipulate the reviewer into "coming up" with the…

> 'Rightly or wrongly, most people can't stand being criticized.'

Wrongly. It's definitely a form of wrongness that idiotic humans are susceptible to.

> 'If there's a solution to that one it's a diplomatic one, not a technical one.'

Yes. It's called "break off all diplomatic relations with that crazy ass state and start preparing for war.

> 'Be similarly wary to point out bugs in code reviewer's code. Unless you have a healthy professional atmosphere and multiple reviewers, your best course is to manipulate the reviewer into "coming up" with the idea for the bugfix from your ticket.'

Listen to yourself. Your 'solution' to psychopathy is to become a psychopath yourself? Learn to manipulate and control others? Just accept people's absolute stupidity, selfishness, and arrogance, and just learn to manipulate them? No thanks.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#762
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point is to see how people think, it is not so simple to regurgitate pre-learned answers when you alter a problem one small attribute at a time, in each case a different answer becomes optimal, thus you can see if the person understand what needs to be done or not

>the point is to see how people think i feel very strongly this is a disingenuous claim. clinical psychologists go to school for a long time to learn how to assess people's abilities to think. why should i believe that you a random software engineer have any competency whatsoever. in reality this is exactly the reason standardized exams (or standardized interviews such as leetcode style problems) exist - because aver…

> 'i feel very strongly this is a disingenuous claim.'

...

> 'clinical psychologists go to school for a long time to learn how to assess people's abilities to think.'

Is that really what you think? Here's the harsh, cold reality: psychologists are mostly quacks. The fact that you so strongly believe otherwise shows that your brainwashing runs deep.

In reality, it's quite possible for awake and learned persons to study and understand the thinking of others. I do it every day. Case in point:

> 'why should i believe that you a random software engineer have any competency whatsoever.'

It seems you're one of those 'specialist' types, who is so much of a specialist that they actually believe being hyper-focused on one narrow thing to the complete and dimwitted exclusion of all else is the only possible mode of existence.

God help you if you were ever to learn that there are actually other types of people out there in the world who in some cases know twice as much as you do about your given area of 'expertise' plus 1000x what you know of anything else.

> 'in reality this is exactly the reason standardized exams (or standardized interviews such as leetcode style problems) exist - because average person can't accurately make that call.'

Not everybody is average, dimwit. Especially the sort of people who are supposed to be interviewing top tier programmers. And not everybody is an autistic dweeb who can't understand other humans.

Poker players have a saying: if you haven't figured out in the first 5 minutes who the mark is, then you're it. Get a clue, noob.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things. The google interview process was not made to filter you out. It was made to guarantee that they will not make a mistake on hiring you. People with the capability to do those interview problems have a high chance of being good programmers. There are many people like you who can't do those problems but are still very good programmers. Google doesn't need to hire you, the whole interview process is optimized…

> 'I can't stop judging you based off of the white board question nor do I know how to confirm that you can write a kernel despite lack of ability to solve very very basic programming questions.' You phrased this as two parts, but in reality these two things are intricately linked. It's because you don't know how to judge person on their true ability--i.e. that you lack this skill--that you resort to useless triviali…

>Combine survivorship bias (you were subjected to it and made it, so that validates the process)

Let me spell it out for you so that we are on the same page and my Bias is utterly clear:

I Do not have the intellectual ability to make it through the google interview process. I consider myself to be a an excellent coder but I cannot pass their process. I also believe that the majority of programmers at google are smarter than me.

There. This is the ultimate form of unbiased judgement, a judgement that marks yourself as inferior. Google creates interviews I cannot pass, do I use bias to disparage the interview process or do I take a neutral viewpoint even when the neutral viewpoint says something about my own abilities?

If you can't score 200 points on an IQ test, is there something wrong with the IQ test or is it you? Which form of judgement are you taking here and which form of judgment am I taking and who is MORE biased?

If anyone is biased here, it is You.

>You phrased this as two parts, but in reality these two things are intricately linked. It's because you don't know how to judge person on their true ability--i.e. that you lack this skill--that you resort to useless trivialities like this whiteboard bullshit.

You assume that if you wrote what I wrote it would be a form of survivorship bias. This is a common mistake. How you interpret other people is a reflection of your own qualities, weaknesses and biases. You would suffer from survivorship bias if you were in my (perceived) situation and you chose to project that quality onto me even though I am possibly one of the least biased people you could meet.

To be unbiased is to have the ability to swallow uncomfortable truths. You'll know if you're such a person because you'll generally be unhappy. Such an ability is rare. I believe I have it, but make no mistake. It is a curse. The world is a dog eat dog shitty place and most people get through it happily by painting illusions around themselves. To see the world in raw untouched form is to wade through a lake of shit everyday. Better to say the google interview process is dumb than to admit to yourself that you just aren't google material.

You inject many assumptions into what I am saying. What you don't realize that I am in complete agreement with your above statement. Nothing was said to the contrary.

I Don't know how to judge a person's true ability because I lack that skill. I admitted this in the original statement but your blindness completely masked this meaning from you. You aren't hearing what I am really saying:

I am saying that No one has the ability to perfectly judge another persons interview ability. We must use unbiased statistics, metrics and methods of measurement to arrive at a good outcome. There are tons of good programmers out there that can program that can't do whiteboards, but there are much much much much less programmers that can do whiteboards but can't program. Thus if you pass an unbiased coding test that means you have a much much higher chance of being a good coder and possessing genetics that make you more intelligent than the person who couldn't pass it.

This makes the whiteboard interview the Best most unbiased process we have to judge other people. Note that when I say "best" I just mean that it is the best we have despite the fact that it's just not a very accurate way of judging people. Whiteboard interviews aren't that great, it's just better than any other method we have.

Using a conversation or a Design discussion to pass a person in an interview is not a measurable metric. It is subject to all kinds of biases. For example, this very conversational thread you assume that I am a survivor of the google interview process. The conversational format and your biases made you blind. Guess what, if you gave me a whiteboard coding interview, you'd know for sure but you made an assumption and instead wrote a response that demonstrated how completely off base and biased such interview processes without whiteboarding can be.

The most unbiased measurable way to detect if someone can program is to do a whiteboard interview. Most other data in an interview gleaned via conversation is subject to bias

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They did a pretty poor job on this already. And it adds one more requirements, the ability to pretend that you have never practiced a similar question before :P. This is solved by throwing multiple interview questions at the person that are all novel and not derived from the internet. The probability of ALL questions being seened before is very low. >And there are millions of ways to improve problem solving than rep…

> This is solved by throwing multiple interview questions at the person that are all novel and not derived from the internet. The probability of ALL questions being seened before is very low. This is solved by adding more questions into Leetcode. 1000+ and counting. > So? Doesn't change the effectiveness of leetcode in passing an interview and displaying your ability to learn and solve novel problems. If you have oth…

>This is solved by adding more questions into Leetcode. 1000+ and counting.

I know people who did 500 LC problems and couldn't get in google and people who did 20 and got in. The problem set on LC is too large for memorization to work. Google will be giving you problems that aren't on LC and they are actively testing for raw intelligence.

>You missed the point entirely. My argument is that many interviews are not designed for problem solving but practicing and memorization. And this is exactly why Leetcode ensures you to repeat these template 100 times effectively.

No you missed my point. I've talked to those google interviewers, they are not testing your memorization skills that is not their intent. The amount of algorithm problems available in the universe far exceeds that which is available on Leetcode. When you interview at google the questions are designed so that you've never seen any of them before. Get it?

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A published paper in a top conference only happens through political connections in undergrad it is not a marker for your IQ which is what a company like google tests for. The interview is not just about writing bug free code it is 100% about solving a problem you haven't seen before. Google specifically tells their interviewers to avoid "canned" problems that are already all over the internet. >If the interview is k…

> 'A published paper in a top conference only happens through political connections in undergrad' Which fact in and of itself ought to show just how rigged the whole system is--when people can get papers published in prestigious journals merely on the strength of "whom they know."

It also shows how unrigged the whole google interview process is.

A whiteboard interview is a "Political connection agnostic" interview.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. I hate to break it to you, but Amazon doesn't reject a candidate because he bombed his coding challenge. I know people who received a job offer from Amazon for a developer position although they somewhat bombed their hard skills component. If you were rejected after passing the coding challenge and phone screening interview then…

[Thinking to themselves:] "Is this serf really the right kind of drone, the type who will fit neatly--much like an unthinking cog--into our organizational machinery?" Maybe he accidentally let it slip that he thought the South should have won and Robert E. Lee had some good ideas.

Yeah, they do weed out racists and misogynists and people who in general have a problem with minorities even if they can traverse a graph like a champ, but as far as I know the main reason why someone is rejected after passing the online test and phone screening is having serious problems with their personality and soft skills that, as a whole, render the candidate unable to improve to an acceptable level and thus are unsalvageable.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in my comment do I talk about leetcode or false positives? Not only are you incorrect, but you are completely off topic. I am saying Gayle Lackman, the author of Cracking the coding interview and, in the past, one of the board members who decide on candidates in the google interview literally told me word for word that the interview optimizes for IQ. Meaning that there are tons of engineers who can spend a life…

Ironically, the people who are truly of the highest intelligence and skill level would never choose to work at a place like that. So it's fair to say that what they are actually selecting for are people who are smart, but not too smart. Just like cops, really.

You got data to prove that? More than likely you pulled that statement out of your ass.

Some of the smartest people work at google for half a million in TC.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#768
post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're speaking as if you have experience with this but looking at your LinkedIn and previous comments, you have zero years professional software dev experience? Yet, you speak so authoritatively and decisively in this comment and your parent comment. The other people responding (including me) all have multiple years experience in actual software companies of all sizes.

On HN, it's not ok to bring in someone else's personal details as ammunition in an argument. That's a form of personal attack and a steep drop in how users here need to treat each other. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22334315 ("Looking through your LinkedIn/comments is low effort and confirmed my suspicions of you being whatever the inverse of Dunning–Kruger is") was even worse. Please don't post like that her…

Surely is relevant when the person is commenting on the experience of something when they've never experienced it.

I'm all for dogs on the internet but no point in accepting dogs commenting on the life of cats whilst strongly giving the impression that they too are cats.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note about coding interviews, they're very simular to somone looking over your shoulder while you're working. Nobody can perform well like that.. One great colleague who I wish I was in the interview for, simple started thinking out loud. Everything he was thinking, he said out loud, and of course, the team loved it. Because thats all it's about. If its not over a video chat/submission, comment your code…

So I had an interview that was like that, but I wasn’t given enough information. I was asked to implement the “inverse square law in code” ... and I explained to the interviewer who was two years out of college (I looked up all of the interviewers on linkedin, so I had a good idea of their experience and areas of expertise) that my first step as someone who hadn’t been in an academic environment or exposed to this ki…

> “No, you should know this.”

I'd ask: if I get a job at your company, will I be not allowed to consult outside sources too? I mean, about half of programmer's work on real projects is googling stuff.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#770
post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"targeting and how to improve it is extremely intellectually stimulating" I thought the answer to that was a rather bland "by gobbling up even more information about everyone"?

Not all data points are useful. Different pools have different profitability advertised in different ways. Some highly useful data is hard to get directly or requires significant and/or stealthy spend.

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