SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#761

Post by robotresearcher » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:45 AM UTC

qazpot wrote: post #754

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

> Why does my parents’ achievement have a fundamental impact on my opportunities? Because they are your parents and they will have an impact on your life whether you like it or not, right down from the genes you inherit to the kind of people you hang out with. So yes there achievement will have an impact on your opportunities. What you want can only happen when parents are no longer associated with their children in…

We decide how life works, between us. You want the kids of rich people to win the next generation unquestioned? I think we can do better.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#762

Post by yibg » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:47 AM UTC

rexpop wrote: post #753

yibg wrote: post #750

Fundamentally I think pretty much everyone agrees on the concept of equal opportunity. But what people don't seem to agree on is the definition of equal opportunity. Or even I guess what is opportunity? If we have 2 people, A and B. A belongs to a wealthy family and lives in a nice neighborhood and goes to a nice high school. B has a poorer family, lives in a worse neighborhood and goes to a worse high school. What w…

I was with you until the very last sentence. Look, it's a question of implementation. There's a quantitative threshold at which students qualify for admission. Either we change that threshold, or we fudge the score.

Not sure I agree with that. The two choices are not just change the threshold or fudge the score. Ideally it would be to provide the right conditions so that neither is needed.

Of course real world is more complex than that, and that condition is not easy to provide. I'm just not sure having an subjective, arbitrary and opaque fudge factor is the right answer.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#763

Post by djtriptych » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:48 AM UTC

yibg wrote: post #750

Fundamentally I think pretty much everyone agrees on the concept of equal opportunity. But what people don't seem to agree on is the definition of equal opportunity. Or even I guess what is opportunity? If we have 2 people, A and B. A belongs to a wealthy family and lives in a nice neighborhood and goes to a nice high school. B has a poorer family, lives in a worse neighborhood and goes to a worse high school. What w…

Ok but why not include achievement in the face of adversity. Why not consider this a perseverance/tenacity score?

Since when does GPA/SAT completely describe fitness for the future?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#764

Post by objektif » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:48 AM UTC

thereare5lights wrote: post #700

objektif wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Asians I know are very well educated and doing well. I bet they are probably much better off compared to other minorities in the US. When I was doing PhD 90% of my classmates were Chinese. I think it is a bit of a stretch to to say Asians are completely getting screwed in the US.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to make any sort of conclusion based on your sampling of PhD students.

Same goes for every single place I worked at. Asians are by far the most prominent minority group. What should I base my argument on? Your experience? Why dont you counter argue with facts and hard statistics to disprove me?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#765

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:49 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #526

Glyptodon wrote: post #18

This seems likely to end up being ugly. For example wealthy people could buy or rent addresses in "adverse" neighborhoods, or charter schools might locate offices there, in order to attempt to improve scores on this metric. At the same time this won't be able to identify many adverse life circumstances like abusive parents, cancer, etc. What it does do is outsource components of admissions decisions the colleges may…

It always gets ugly. I had a (well-off, white) friend use another friend's address to get into the high school I went to. He ended up at Princeton so I guess it worked well for him. No one did anything about it. The case in 2011 where an Ohio woman (Kelley Williams-Bolar) was sentenced to a short jail sentence and 3 years probation and asked to pay $30000 to the school because she did the same thing has come up in th…

Felicity Huffman is going to go to jail for much longer than Kelley Williams-Bolar (9 days), even though she is rich, white, and has great lawyers.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#766

Post by maceurt » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:49 AM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

There are so many online resources and free tutors out their nowadays for high school students, and it is only getting better.

We can't control your upbringing or the opportunities your parents give you completely though. People think the material opportunities given by parents is not fair, but think that the emotional or social opportunities of parents is. If my parents were emotionally abusive, but I grew up rich, should they rig the SAT to show that? How would they even measure that?

In a perfect world outcomes would only be determined by genetics, and the environmental factors would not play into life at all. We don't live in that world, and it would be impossible to replicate it. There are too many variables to be able to measure who deserves what beyond a merit based system.

Look at it another way, would it be fair for a high school/ college sport to artificially raise and lower rankings based on upbringing or environment? Should players with significant coaching be lowered in the rankings, and poor players be raised? I don't think so.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#767

Post by maceurt » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:52 AM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #761

qazpot wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does my parents’ achievement have a fundamental impact on my opportunities? Because they are your parents and they will have an impact on your life whether you like it or not, right down from the genes you inherit to the kind of people you hang out with. So yes there achievement will have an impact on your opportunities. What you want can only happen when parents are no longer associated with their children in…

We decide how life works, between us. You want the kids of rich people to win the next generation unquestioned? I think we can do better.

> You want the kids of rich people to win the next generation unquestioned?

I am not the person you were replying to, but no. However, the person who wins should be the more qualified person based on merit not based on some standard of suffering. Just because you had a harder environment does not mean you are more qualified than someone with an easier environment.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#768

Post by robotresearcher » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:58 AM UTC

maceurt wrote: post #767

robotresearcher wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We decide how life works, between us. You want the kids of rich people to win the next generation unquestioned? I think we can do better.

> You want the kids of rich people to win the next generation unquestioned? I am not the person you were replying to, but no. However, the person who wins should be the more qualified person based on merit not based on some standard of suffering. Just because you had a harder environment does not mean you are more qualified than someone with an easier environment.

I agree completely. But there should be some heterogeneity available in the routes to success. Not all bright kids are ready and trained for the SATs. I was not and luckily I found another route in 1990s England. I’m trying to keep some alternate routes open.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#769

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 7:01 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #498

jachee wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is giving underprivileged people a leg up "punishing" anyone? Privileged people need to start recognizing their inherent pre-rigging of the system. For those in power, equality feels like oppression.

>For those in power, equality feels like oppression. This is a classic Kafka-trap, and I see this rhetorical payload delivered more and more these days. "If you have a problem with changing the status quo, then you're in power and thus deserve to have the status quo changed on you."

Or it's:

"If you have a problem with changing the status quo, in a situation where the change would make you lose something, take extra time to examine whether it was justified for the status quo to give you that thing in the first place."

Which is good advice.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#770

Post by yibg » Fri, May 17, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

djtriptych wrote: post #763

yibg wrote: post #750

Fundamentally I think pretty much everyone agrees on the concept of equal opportunity. But what people don't seem to agree on is the definition of equal opportunity. Or even I guess what is opportunity? If we have 2 people, A and B. A belongs to a wealthy family and lives in a nice neighborhood and goes to a nice high school. B has a poorer family, lives in a worse neighborhood and goes to a worse high school. What w…

Ok but why not include achievement in the face of adversity. Why not consider this a perseverance/tenacity score? Since when does GPA/SAT completely describe fitness for the future?

The question then becomes do we go for an objective scoring system or are we ok with it being subjective? How do you quantify perseverance and tenacity? Is it higher perseverance to grow up in a poor neighborhood or with some chronic disease? Is overcoming ESL or abusive parents more tenacious?

Even looking at my own situation I'm not sure which way things should go. I grew up poor to immigrant parents that didn't speak English (neither did I). However both parents are educated and valued education. Do I get + or - marks?