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Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

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761–770 of 776 posts

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably censoring them does expose you to something worse: it establishes a bureaucracy and social norms that are perfectly fine with crushing unpopular and diverse opinions. It's a simple tyranny of the majority. Sure, you consider this speech abhorrent, but switch the scenario around and consider how enforcing these types of norms stalled real social progress in the past: gay rights, women's rights, rights for vis…

We already have the bureaucracy and social norms and the tyranny of the majority. We don't now, and never have, existed in a pure state of nature with respect to freedom of expression. What this banning does is move the border between acceptable and unacceptable. You're arguing it's a slippery slope, that the moving border will eventually steamroll right over me and I'll regret not stopping it earlier. "Slippery slop…

> We don't now, and never have, existed in a pure state of nature with respect to freedom of expression.

Agreed. But we've largely only supported censoring speech that's incitement to violence, because anything beyond that seems to result in untenable legal duties.

Furthermore, one main point of protecting free speech rights is to protect the minority against the majority. Classifying that minority as ethically abhorrent is irrelevant. While democracy is a tyranny of the majority, we recognize fundamental, inalienable rights to check that tyranny.

> You're arguing it's a slippery slope, that the moving border will eventually steamroll right over me and I'll regret not stopping it earlier.

That's one argument but not nearly the only one. Another is that there currently exists no rigourous criteria by which to classify the speech that people are looking to censor, so a) every case will be decided inconsistently by people who have no training in adjudicating what should be a philosophical or legal matter, and b) it will sweep up a lot of innocent people and stifle important political debate (which has already happened).

There are plenty more arguments, some of which I've elaborated on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19819584

> "Slippery slope" is a fallacy. Legalizing gay marriage doesn't mean we'll legalize polygamy

Except there are non-fallacious slippery slopes. Gay marriage and polygamy have no factual basis in common, so there is no slope down which we can slip. That's why invoking the slippery slope is a fallacy in this case.

Now consider instead legalizing bestiality specifically with, say, dogs. Why only dogs? There is no non-fallacious, factual basis for why bestiality with horses should not also be legal if you're going to allow dogs. This is a non-fallacious slippery slope.

So you're asserting that the arguments I've presented are fallacious without actually pointing out the absence of a factual basis. As for asserting my factual basis, I can point out how Twitter and Facebook have already banned controversial politicians, thus effectively meddling in elections. I can also point to recent Supreme Court precedent that established that social media is a public square, and thus that First Amendment protections apply against. I can also point out how that actual studies on online radicalization failed to find any basis for the idea that online echo chambers and hate speech alone actually led to radicalization and violence, so the entire premise for the push to censor this speech is itself fallacious.

So then what are we left with? What justification is there to censor these people? We're left only with mob rule and capitalist motives in appeasing advertisers. These are emphatically not compelling reasons to establish these new and dangerous norms.

> It's not a ratchet. We make collective decisions and live with them, and maybe change our minds later.

Or we could apply a bit of foresight and understanding of history and avoid the problems altogether. The fact that censorship of this sort can and has influenced elections means that we quite literally may not be able to change our minds later.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a mischaracterization. Free market proponents believe that markets will reach an equilibrium on their own if left alone, and they believe that monopolies are caused by regulation (regulatory capture). This line of thinking is often (but not always) rooted in the Austrian school of economics. If someone is telling you that they support free markets and they also support government regulation, they don't under…

Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do. For example, Paul Joseph Watson in this tweet[1] says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies. I'm pretty sure a quick search will show similar results for the others. [1] https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1012108095286317058

>Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do.

That doesn't contradict my original point.

>says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies.

Yes, free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation. Moreover, when libertarians and free market advocates support limited government, they typically mean a government which only provides a few very basic services, such as military, police, etc. It has nothing to do with regulation.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can use facebook, youtube or twitter to reach lots of people, how could any one of them be a monopoly on reach?

> If you can use facebook, youtube or twitter to reach lots of people, how could any one of them be a monopoly on reach? Even though they are competing for attention, they each use different mediums. As an analogy, it's like only having one radio station, one TV station, and one magazine. There needs to be dozens of each for there to be a true marketplace of ideas.

This isn't what the previous poster said - reach is something you can get on any of these platforms (and more), yet that was pointed out as what each has a monopoly on.

Can you define a market each of them has a monopoly over? There are many popular video apps and many popular social media apps. Exactly what does each of them have a monopoly on? A network effect is not a monopoly. Being the exclusive provider of convenience for some specific group of people is not a monopoly.

For example, in some religious town, it's possible that the only way to reach a certain group of people on a Sunday afternoon is to go to the church. This does not mean the church has a monopoly on reach. Likewise, it's possible that where you live, the only place you can get a meal at 2AM is Aunt Ann's Diner. This doesn't make them a monopoly. Nor is the only sushi restaurant in town a monopoly. We live in a world of differentiation - every service provider that has a reason to exist provides something that others don't. This doesn't make everyone a monopoly.

Also, on none of these platforms is it trivial to build a large audience. And it's certainly possible to build a large audience through other means. For any given platform to have a monopoly on reach, people must be spending so little time outside of this platform that it's impossible to reach them otherwise. That's not a world any of us lives in. Even Youtube accounts for a very small fraction of time spent on watching videos and Facebook and Twitter are two of a large number of popular social networks. Snapchat, WeChat, iMessage, Weibo, TikTok, QQ, VK, Reddit, LinkedIn and Line to name a few.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#764
post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidelines state that I'm not allowed to post unkind comments. These people deserve harsh criticism, therefore I am happy to break that guideline.

The guidelines aren't that way because those people necessarily deserve better, but because the community deserves better. When you break the guidelines like that, you're damaging the community you're participating in. Worse, you're damaging it where it's most vulnerable. HN is only valuable because smart, thoughtful people choose to come here.

Come on man. That's a childish thoughtless response. If you actually read my responses to these nutcases you will agree that THEY are the ones damaging the community by mindlessly supporting this third world dark age of censorship.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do. For example, Paul Joseph Watson in this tweet[1] says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies. I'm pretty sure a quick search will show similar results for the others. [1] https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1012108095286317058

>Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do. That doesn't contradict my original point. >says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies. Yes, free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation. Moreover, when libertarians and free market advocates support limited government…

> free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation

These free market advocates don't believe that, clearly. I'm wondering why you get to draw these lines rather than the people themselves.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#766

This is what we get for letting these shady social media companies get into the center of our discourse. Just remember even if you dislike people who are banned, it could be your people next. Social media should reflect the first amendment. Let's get with the times here...

Equal exposure of all opinions is not a First Amendment issue.

Thanks for the social media company shilling. We all appreciate the overlords sneaking propaganda in!

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do. That doesn't contradict my original point. >says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies. Yes, free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation. Moreover, when libertarians and free market advocates support limited government…

> free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation These free market advocates don't believe that, clearly. I'm wondering why you get to draw these lines rather than the people themselves.

You are free to define yourself however you wish. You can call yourself a pro-free-market, anarcho-capitalist who believes in regulation and a strong communist government. You can mix up and confuse definitions all you want. That has no bearing on the validity of my point. Alex Jones is someone who rails against government interference in markets, and he is the type whom I'm referring to. Now people complain that he's being treated unjustly, when it's really just market forces that have dictated his fate. That is a specific example of what I'm saying.

If you're offended by my standard usage of the term "free market", then you can change my statement to "People who oppose government intervention..." I'm not interested in what you think the term "free market" means, because it's entirely irrelevant to my point.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#768
post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidelines aren't that way because those people necessarily deserve better, but because the community deserves better. When you break the guidelines like that, you're damaging the community you're participating in. Worse, you're damaging it where it's most vulnerable. HN is only valuable because smart, thoughtful people choose to come here.

Come on man. That's a childish thoughtless response. If you actually read my responses to these nutcases you will agree that THEY are the ones damaging the community by mindlessly supporting this third world dark age of censorship.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you aren't damaging the community as well, and only that damage is within your control to stop.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation These free market advocates don't believe that, clearly. I'm wondering why you get to draw these lines rather than the people themselves.

You are free to define yourself however you wish. You can call yourself a pro-free-market, anarcho-capitalist who believes in regulation and a strong communist government. You can mix up and confuse definitions all you want. That has no bearing on the validity of my point. Alex Jones is someone who rails against government interference in markets, and he is the type whom I'm referring to. Now people complain that he'…

> If you're offended by…

Please keep in mind the guidelines[1].

> Don't be snarky.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then you're arguing against your original point because they don't support free markets, they just think they do. That doesn't contradict my original point. >says he's for free markets, limited government, and against monopolies. Yes, free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation. Moreover, when libertarians and free market advocates support limited government…

> free market advocates are against monopolies, but believe that they're caused by government regulation These free market advocates don't believe that, clearly. I'm wondering why you get to draw these lines rather than the people themselves.

Replying here one last time due to max comment depth.

>I'm wondering why you get to draw these lines rather than the people themselves.

Yes, let's both agree to follow the guidelines and not be snarky.

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