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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#761

Post by wahern »

whatupmd wrote: post #510
mrec wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are trying to camouflage that reality with a bad deal They're not, May is, and May is not a Brexiter. The Brexiters generally are pushing to leave on WTO terms, not so much as a preferred end state but in recognition of the fact that only a genuine commitment to doing so has any chance of convincing the EU to agree to sensible terms such as Canada+. If the EU can keep the UK under its thumb forever then of cou…

"The Brexiters generally are pushing to leave on WTO terms" - to claim that there is a consensus amongst this lot is perhaps a stretch.

WTO terms and the issue of Northern Ireland are fundamentally irreconcilable. So I'd say it's more than a stretch; it's outright inconsistent.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#762

Post by 2038AD »

nearbuy wrote: post #695
yholio wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

I often hear the refrain that, "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried". But how many forms have actually been tried? As far as I know, every country is either a democracy or an autocracy. Maybe it could be better phrased as, "Democracy is better than autocracy, and we think it's crazy to try anything else".

I think part of that is democracy is a good brand and applies to concretely different things like:

* No votes, just voluntary interactions

* The people voting on every issue

* The government/representatives being chosen randomly from the people

* Elected representatives being voted for by the people

* Political parties being voted for by the people

Then you have more details like franchise, denizens vs citizens, bicameralism, and more to worry about.

I would also say China today is neither a democracy (as least as you would think) or an autocracy.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#763

Post by jayalpha »

The UK was the sick man of Europe. Then, basically around the same time:

1. Thatcher made economic reforms

2. Oil was found in the sea (UK oil production correlates a lot with the rising UK economy)

3. The UK joined the EU (EC)

The Oil is gone and they want to leave the EU. Let's see how it goes.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#764

Post by patates »

justaguyhere wrote: post #682
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

This form of condescension Absolutely not trying to be condescending, apologies if I came across that way. Personally, I am just pained that voters who live in countries where democracy still works, do not take it seriously - that includes not spending time and effort to educate themselves with at least the basics of the issues they are voting on. Imagine living in countries like Russia, Zimbabwe, Turkey etc - where…

> countries like Russia, Zimbabwe, Turkey etc - where elections are a farce

You underestimate the propaganda of Erdoğan, Putin and the likes. Elections themselves can be actually 100% proper - but for example in Turkey's case, 90% of the media is owned by pro-government people (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Turkey - Demirören group is managed by this guy: https://www.haber61.net/images/upload/erdogan_demiroren_basb.... And Çalık is managed by Erdoğan's relatives). Same story applies to many of the dictatorships.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#765

Post by mk89 »

alasdair_ wrote: post #727
asabjorn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

Everything seems to be going as planned. "The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]" "Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian pr…

What else do you expect from Russia or any other country that tries to overpower the others? It's just like nature, when the lion takes over the group and he is constantly challenged.

Now, if someone challenges you and you are easily defeated, then it means you don't deserve to be the leader. If our leadership is failing, then so be it, they don't deserve to rule the world.

Blaming brexit on Russia is new to me, albeit not surprising.

Brexit was a timed event destined to happen for the simple reason that Germany France and Great Britain cannot rule at the same time. They never could and they never will.

And Great Britain for one reason or the other found itself behind, they were unable to do push their supremacy over Germany and France. Either you leave or you knee, or you fight. They were unable to force other powerful countries to make them do what they wished, as they had done in the last 6 centuries before.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#766

Post by switch007 »

sievebrain wrote: post #509
pjc50 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly the government cannot deliver both "Brexit" and "business continuity", potentially including such things as "food and medical supplies". This is gradually dawning on even the dimmest Cabinet ministers.

The idea that food and medical supplies will disappear is completely wrong and has already been debunked by, amongst other people, the head of the NHS. This is especially true because being in the EU actually increases food costs due to the common external tariff. The only reason food imports would slow is if the government wanted them to, which it doesn't. The illogical and ridiculous predictions that somehow the on…

> The illogical and ridiculous predictions that somehow the only thing keeping British people alive is huge payments to the EU, is not only factually false, but insulting to boot

Of course it's false: it's a strawman. Payments to the EU to keep people "alive", really?

> Now there are people who seriously believe the country will be brought to its knees by trading on WTO terms

I am astounded by the number of WTO experts in this country of late. Yet nobody can explain the practicalities, they just say "trade on WTO terms" as the answer to everything. Weird

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#767

Post by collyw »

dTal wrote: post #669
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

Yes, just like they won the US election as well. Those guys sure are good at marketing considering the relatively minimal sums they spend.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/russian-facebook-ad-spend/

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#768

Post by anarchitect »

sbmthakur wrote: post #737
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

You make it look like the 'stay' campaign is not funded externally[1]. Obama had openly asked Britishers to vote "stay"[2]. I am not sure about Britain(or the West). But in most of the sovereign nations, this would be considered as foreign interference. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/29/george-soro... 2. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/obama-eu-britain-brex...

You’ve linked to an article about Soros advocating a second referendum, not funding the Remain campaign. Meanwhile, the Leave.EU campaign is being investigated for receiving funding from “impermissible sources”.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#769

Post by davedx »

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> Somebody needs to own up to that lie

See David Lammy MP's speech on the 10th about exactly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XEj64IFzQ8

Some of our politicians are not afraid to tell the truth.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#770

Post by usgroup »

hacker_9 wrote: post #79
usgroup wrote: post #69

Ahhhh fudge ... People’s vote ... it might just happen. May now has to chat with the opposition, understand what it’d take to vote yes , take that to Europe, bring back a compromise ... vote again, get that accepted. People’s vote is starting to look like the more likely outcome... had she lost by say 50 or 100 votes ... ok but 432 vs 202 ?! 230 votes to claw back somehow .

I wonder what it's like being her sometimes, where you have, and will continue to fail at everything you do for years on end, in the most public and embarrassing way possible. I can't quite figure out if she is driven by just really wanting brexit, or it's just a power grab.

Well I think the irony of it is that given the choice of no Brexit or her own deal she may even pick no Brexit at the polls :)
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