Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Who Killed the Junior Developer?

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

761–770 of 803 posts

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#761

Post by g051051 »

virgilp wrote: post #747
g051051 wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't you spending time thinking? Do you imagine you think faster than everybody aged 23? No, but I probably think better ...i.e. how to approach a problem, sift out the relevant details, formulate a plan, execute it, understand the trade-offs, etc. As a result, I can deliver more correct code faster than a junior dev. > you can't possibly be "100x" in the sense that you claim to be. I never claimed to be 100x. I…

> I never claimed to be 100x. You actually did - look 2 posts up, "i.e. I'm a 10x (100x) dev". But I suspect you didn't actually read that link, just the URL - not fair to chide me for mentioning the number if you didn't read what that meant. > how to approach a problem, sift out the relevant details, formulate a plan, understand the trade-offs That's exactly my claim, that you add more value with this sort of activi…

Actually, the context that you're ignoring is important:

> I'm so much more effective that it's always cheaper to have me do it, assuming I don't have a higher priority task (in which case it's a non-issue, since I'm working on that one). I.E. I'm a 10x (or 100x) developer, but I don't get paid 10x (or 100x).

The numbers were merely to indicate that my multiplier is sufficient that I'm cheaper than a dev.

> I suspect you didn't actually read that link, just the URL - not fair to chide me for mentioning the number if you didn't read what that meant.

No need to suspect, I confirm I didn't read it. I saw the number in the URL and just dismissed it as puffery.

> That's exactly my claim, that you add more value with this sort of activity than the "execute it" part; doing that plus teaching others to do it, you add exponentially more value to the company, than just coding stuff in a corner .

That was in no way you're claim, at least, not the claim I disputed. Your claim(s) were:

> You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!

> "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do

No way. Maybe mentoring is a part of the job, but it's by no means the main job in many organizations.

> if you remove qualifications like "correct code" or "maintainable" or whatever

??? This is a pretty ludicrous statement. Why would you ever count incorrect code? And yes, I probably can code incorrectly faster than a junior dev, too. After decades of experience, I'm a faster typist than most junior devs.

> I know very well that my younger self could code circles around my older self when it comes to raw speed. And I've seen other people like that later; experience can't fight youth when it comes to speed and enthusiasm... it just can't.

Rose colored glasses, to say the least. You seem to be switching back and forth on whether raw LOC throughput is meaningful...first you were "flabbergasted" that it might be a measure of productivity, now you're bragging about raw speed, and even suggesting that creating "correct code" or "maintainable" code is irrelevant, which is insane.

> It's more likely that you just never worked with a good junior dev before, than it is that you can always code everything faster).

I've worked with (and mentored) some really great junior devs, who grew into great senior devs. But they didn't walk into the building as my equals in coding.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#762

Post by marrs »

Klinky wrote: post #412
marrs wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already got myself in boiling water by criticizing management in that the way projects and tasks were being managed was highly unprofessional... Communicating with managers is a bit of an art. I think a large part of what makes a developer "senior" is their ability to do this effectively. I'm not making any comments on your personal situation, but as a general rule it's important to talk in terms of solutions and n…

This doesn't work if you need help and resources to find solutions to said problems. You cannot solve everyone else's problems and implement solutions for them. You can suggest solutions, but someone has to give the okay and devote the time to implementation. If every problem you see requires you to submit a lengthy solutions proposal to the people who should be solving it themselves, you'll get burned out.

No, but you can solve the problems you can solve. That will give you currency to buy respect, trust, and responsibility.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't do anything without getting permission first, but for the things you do need permission for, the above advice might help.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#763

Post by alistairSH »

tboyd47 wrote: post #388
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! For at least 2 companies I've worked at, this is false. Junior devs cannot complete their work at all without help. This may be the real problem: there is no way to learn the skills to do the job without actually getting a job first and learning the skills as you go.

This is where a high quality on-boarding program comes into play. Yes, a dev fresh out of college or code boot camp, with little or no real world experience, is going to be unproductive individually.

As the employer/manager, you need to work to minimize the period of time this is the case and ensure those junior devs quickly get to a point where they can work individually.

I mentioned it elsewhere in this discussion - we have a 1 month on-boarding program for new devs. They all arrive at the same time (summer after graduation), stay near HQ, and work through all the common training together (some tech, some culture, some "how to be an adult", etc). They also work through a simple, but in-depth (UI, API, build pipeline, etc), group project. And wrap up with a two day hackathon for fun (done in common with the summer interns).

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#764

Post by logfromblammo »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #725
oldandtired wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labels like rockstar, guru and ninja are labels we don't need. We need competent generalists and competent specialists who can work in teams as well as work alone and can communicate with those who are part of the team or part of the management and user bases. When a person takes on for themselves labels like rockstar, guru, ninja, etc. I don't doubt that they can write code, but I certainly doubt that they can write…

We don't need titles like that at all. Let's change rockstar to MVP Developer, Ninja to Builder, Guru to Experienced Builder, and the 3rd type of developer described in GP to Maintenance Developer. I think the industry could go a long way if it admits that it needs all 4 of these types of developers, so that expectations were transparent for employees and needs are transparent for developers.

I object to those terms. The rockstar is most definitely not the MVP. To the extent that I have worked with any, they are the insufferable primo donnos that fill the garbage bin and set it on fire then they proselytize their own trash fire to management until they think it is "hot", "energetic" and "enlightened". The rest of us then get stuck dealing with their legacy issues. If you're going to title-ify it, how about "prototype developer"?

The others can be "foundation developer", "transition developer", and "maintenance developer". It's still meaningless as long as different companies won't standardize on those titles.

We likely all know which category we belong to now, and which one we want to be. We also know that any company that asks directly for a "rockstar", "ninja", or "guru" is probably one to be avoided.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#765

Post by vehementi »

logfromblammo wrote: post #764
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need titles like that at all. Let's change rockstar to MVP Developer, Ninja to Builder, Guru to Experienced Builder, and the 3rd type of developer described in GP to Maintenance Developer. I think the industry could go a long way if it admits that it needs all 4 of these types of developers, so that expectations were transparent for employees and needs are transparent for developers.

I object to those terms. The rockstar is most definitely not the MVP. To the extent that I have worked with any, they are the insufferable primo donnos that fill the garbage bin and set it on fire then they proselytize their own trash fire to management until they think it is "hot", "energetic" and "enlightened". The rest of us then get stuck dealing with their legacy issues. If you're going to title-ify it, how abou…

minimum viable product

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#766

Post by alien_at_work »

rplnt wrote: post #756
alien_at_work wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't see why senior dev salaries should go any higher Because they're vastly underpaid compared to the value they produce. >At that point it would be easier to open office overseas even for smaller shops. Which means you're getting junior devs, at best. The entire concept of outsourcing hangs on the idea that the people being outsourced to will behave exactly the opposite of those doing the outsourcing, i.e. not…

World doesn't work like that. You are not paid by the value you create, but by supply/demand for the position. The economics of the product only dictate whether something will be done or not. And your second statement is not true. You simply get cheaper workforce in other countries. Even on senior levels.

>You are not paid by the value you create, but by supply/demand for the position.

The labor market isn't the greatest place to talk about market forces. Companies do everything they legally (and illegally to an extent) can to ensure that it's not an efficient market. Further, companies have all the power in the relationship: most of us must have work but a company doesn't absolutely have to hire someone. I saw a 4-person startup on this site say they'd been looking for a "rockstar" for 2 years to expand their company. They were willing and able to wait 2 years for a highly skilled person willing to take a low enough salary. Not many people can wait 2 years to get a job.

To see what a real labor market would look like, you need to address the power balance. So I think sports teams are a better representation because they have unions to address this issue. And they do capture more of the value they produce (not all of it, obviously).

>And your second statement is not true. You simply get cheaper workforce in other countries. Even on senior levels.

Oh, I had assumed you meant the typical outsourcing locations. If you mean places like Europe, yes you can get good senior people for lower rates there. But it's a percentage lower, not X times lower, you can't get a truly senior level person on e.g. 7k/yr. I'm sure there's someone somewhere that has, but they'd have done better to buy a lottery ticket with that luck.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#767

Post by g051051 »

xigency wrote: post #749
g051051 wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that has anything to do with the original blanket assertion of "good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!".

Aye, but you probably can't code faster if you have to read a manual first? It is easy to construct scenarios where someone from a bootcamp could code "faster" than a principal, senior lead, or CTO of all things. It's just a matter of picking the problem. A better point is that this drought of new talent is just the other side of the pendulum. In the odd years, the problem is layoffs and difficulty finding work witho…

> Aye, but you probably can't code faster if you have to read a manual first?

If we both had to read the manual? Yeah, I'd still be faster. It's just as easy to cherry-pick for one side or another.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#768

Post by logfromblammo »

vehementi wrote: post #765
logfromblammo wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to those terms. The rockstar is most definitely not the MVP. To the extent that I have worked with any, they are the insufferable primo donnos that fill the garbage bin and set it on fire then they proselytize their own trash fire to management until they think it is "hot", "energetic" and "enlightened". The rest of us then get stuck dealing with their legacy issues. If you're going to title-ify it, how abou…

minimum viable product

But you see now how the TLA could be ambiguous.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#769

Post by wccrawford »

mattmanser wrote: post #574
wccrawford wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a pre-interview test that is basically "use flickr's api to show some pictures", with a few details about how the pictures are sized and arranged. Applicants that have gone to bootcamps and even college frequently fail this miserably. Many of the rest fail to understand the details. We even had one use a completely different end point than the one specified by URL to the documentation. Some have just given up…

That's, errr, a very high bar you got there. People got it working, showing they can code just fine, and you fail them because they got some details wrong?

We aren't looking for someone that has to be told repeatedly to read the entire ticket and actually do everything in it. We're looking for detail-oriented people.

And we find them. It's so much easier to work with them.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#770

Post by [deleted] »

logfromblammo wrote: post #764
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need titles like that at all. Let's change rockstar to MVP Developer, Ninja to Builder, Guru to Experienced Builder, and the 3rd type of developer described in GP to Maintenance Developer. I think the industry could go a long way if it admits that it needs all 4 of these types of developers, so that expectations were transparent for employees and needs are transparent for developers.

I object to those terms. The rockstar is most definitely not the MVP. To the extent that I have worked with any, they are the insufferable primo donnos that fill the garbage bin and set it on fire then they proselytize their own trash fire to management until they think it is "hot", "energetic" and "enlightened". The rest of us then get stuck dealing with their legacy issues. If you're going to title-ify it, how abou…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN