James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#761

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

MollyR wrote: post #233

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-…

I would not call my self a conservative/populist, it is hard to to determine this terms especially through the atlantic. the political compass [1] calls me social liberal if that's of any worth. But sure as hell, I hope Google pays up for what they did. Firing him is a clear act of bigotry.

[1] https://www.politicalcompass.org/

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#762

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:00 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #733

bertil wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question, just to get a sense of the context of your testimony: are you working for Google or a similarly prestigious organisation? I can certainly expect “a "Software Engineer" who can't write a SQL statement” in some of the company I worked for a decade ago but I’d be confused to see those at Google. I saw one at Facebook (middle-aged white male) but he left the company after ten days and anyone’s reaction w…

Wouldn't it be more expected at google? I didn't think they had a lot of traditional databases, so it's not a relevant skill for them. They've also got a fair few low level guys working in c and the like that I wouldn't expect to know much about sql.

yes, but we use SQL in our job daily, if only for validation, but also we write a lot of scripts for reporting, migration etc. It's pretty crucial for the job and we've turned away several candidates for not being strong enough in SQL/TSQL

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#763

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:01 AM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #360

creaghpatr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.employmentattorneyla.com/blog/2017/06/can-you-be... TLDR: yes, and there are certain exceptions, IANAL so not sure where this particular case falls

The Law is here (at least according to your link) http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection... The whole thing here emphasis mine: No employer shall make, adopt, or enforce any rule, regulation, or policy : (a) Forbidding or preventing employees from engaging or participating in politics or from becoming candidates for public office. (b) Controlling or directing, or tending to control or direct the…

It seems that Google has to have a specific policy in place for this law to be triggered, which does not seem to be the claim being made.

No. It would be enough for there to be a demonstrated consistent set of actions in a specific direction. Otherwise, many other laws could be made moot by companies not having a specific written policy, but still carrying out such actions.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#764

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:01 AM UTC

jblow wrote: post #396

vowelless wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

If people "on the left" won't allow him to speak, where exactly do you expect him to go? It's like the people on the right saying Edward Snowden is obviously a traitor/spy because he went to Russia. Uhhh... something very obvious is being ignored there. Also, come on ... Joe Rogan is definitely not right-wing. Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin do not self-identify as right-wing. And your [1] just seems a little extreme.…

"The far right is just a slip away from the reasonable right, therefore the reasonable right is dangerous?"

I'm pretty sure this is textbook slippery slope fallacy

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#765

Post by lawnchair_larry » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #656

stcredzero wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the Big Five has been debunked as being too lexical for biological differentiation. Thanks for that. I find that reaction much more informative than the name-calling sent at James Damore. In this sense we can say that the Big Five does not represent the structure of temperament or the structure of biologically based traits, even though lexical perception reflects some elements of it. Well, one should expect th…

Sure, which may be fine for the burden of proof for a personal opinion. Incorrectly using evidence to support your opinion as you broadcast it at work, and not listening, discussing, or considering critical feedback (like this) is a different matter. Especially when it means incorrectly classifying your co-workers and trying to change how your work fights social biases.

I think you may have it backwards. I'm not sure if you read his memo, but it was actually Damore who was inviting discussion and listening to feedback. He was not met with anything resembling constructive discussion, but instead was fired and publicly shamed, in most cases based on fabrications of statements that he did not make, and that did not reflect his intent. Even this techcrunch article is full of them unfortunately.

Until the people who dislike what he had to say are willing to have an honest conversation about things he actually did say, progress here is impossible, and further backlash and resentment against minorities is inevitable.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#766

Post by altstar » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

zpallin wrote: post #554

dmitrygr wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes it is No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

This is good information for people to reflect on this discussion. There is a lot of speculation in this thread and it's what is ultimately leading to the divisive arguing. However, I don't think Google did what you have pasted here. As far as I can tell, they fired him for violating code of conduct, which maintains that employees do not publicize discriminating memos, which he did.

He did not publish it. It was published without his consent. It was supposed to be private.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#767

Post by sintaxi » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:03 AM UTC

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #601

lurr wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about being politically correct, it's about not implying that your female coworkers don't deserve their jobs. before someone says "He didn't do that, you obviously never read it", I did and I still believe it's a conclusion that he leads the reader to. Not sure it was intentional. Also the whole "too neurotic for leadership" bit. WTF was he thinking with that.

Totally agree. How in the world could you have Damore on a team with women after the memo is out and people know he wrote it? I have never bought into this is some social political thing but rather just basic human decency. Never understood how the right wing got a hold of this and my only guess it was Damore or someone from the right wing that wanted this rather obvious HR issue as some social political issue. It is…

Google expects people to work with people who openly hate white men. Just take a look at some of their twitter feeds. Damore expressed no such opinion of women he just has a broader explanation for under-representation in tech other than sexism.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#768

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:04 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #371

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

I watch a fair amount of Microsoft technical videos, and just off the top of my head I can think of 3 people who are very likely to be diversity hires. Although at the same time and despite being pretty far right on the political spectrum, I think there is some truth to the idea that big companies "should" hire visible minorities over and above those that are fully qualified, but it shouldn't be done at the expense o…

I don't think minorities should be hired to be "visible", that doesn't sit right with me. Hiring minorities and even people from different economic backgrounds, country of origin etc is good for getting different perspectives and different ways of approaching problems.

The hard truth is if you only hire white guys from Stanford you've got a ton of overlap in their background and the way they think. If you only hire black women from Somalia it's the same. You're going to have significant similarities. Making teams more diverse is extremely important and beneficial as long as all are otherwise qualified.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#769

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

I feel like this study published in july 2017 is very relevant: "Sex differences in brain size and general intelligence (g)"

link: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616...

Abstract Utilizing MRI and cognitive tests data from the Human Connectome project (N = 900), sex differences in general intelligence (g) and molar brain characteristics were examined. Total brain volume, cortical surface area, and white and gray matter correlated 0.1–0.3 with g for both sexes, whereas cortical thickness and gray/white matter ratio showed less consistent associations with g. Males displayed higher scores on most of the brain characteristics, even after correcting for body size, and also scored approximately one fourth of a standard deviation higher on g. Mediation analyses and the Method of Correlated Vectors both indicated that the sex difference in g is mediated by general brain characteristics. Selecting a subsample of males and females who were matched on g further suggest that larger brains, on average, lead to higher g, whereas similar levels of g do not necessarily imply equal brain sizes.

Highlights • Sex differences in brain morphology and general intelligence were examined.

• MRI and test data of the Human connectome project were used (N = 896)

• Males and females differed in total brain size, gray, and white matter volumes

• The male-female difference in general intelligence, g, was d = 0.25.

• Sex differences in brain morphology mediated the sex difference in g.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#770

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #744

stcredzero wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what, specifically, would those differences be? The balance of the evidence, is that there are some biological differences in preferences. Both biological and cultural factors are at play. As groups, women and men are about the same in terms of average IQ, however, men tend to have a higher population of the extreme outliers. (Both extremely smart men and extremely stupid men.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n69…

Is there any evidence that this is biological, as opposed to cultural?

In short, yes. You should look up the book which is cited in this video, and you should listen to the discussion of the prologue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw

Since the human brain and its interaction with culture is very complicated, more research is needed. But a fair reading of what we have so far would seem to indicate: it's both.

Beware of ideological just-so stories that make you feel good. Also, if it sounds messy and complicated, it sounds like actual biology and psychology.