If Google would not have such diversity program in the first place, none of that would be happening. Reason why female engineers might have anxiety about what male engineers think about them is exactly result of having such program in place.
Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
761–770 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#762Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree, and I suspect the attitude of cooler heads may act in Damore's favor when all is said and done. The number of leakers has to be quite the headache for Google's StopLeaks folks. Between people leaking Damore's memo because they were upset by it, and people talking to Breitbart because they were angry he was fired, there's been a LOT of leaks. How Google approaches handling this issue is going to be interestin…
It was fascinating to see how many Google managers operate their own "blacklists". That's got to be legally very dodgy.
Yep. No one is stopping them from having personal black list and refuse to work personally but they were claiming to ruin people's career inside and outside of Google and they were proud of it which is scary. Also someone was proposing public blacklist...
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#763Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…
I'm not talking about a woman having to prove her technical ability to her male coworkers at work because of their prejudices. I know that that's bullshit and I'm sorry they have to do so. I'm talking about handling what Damore claimed in an intellectually honest way. You can't dismiss his points just because you're tired of talking about them (or what you think are the same points you've always been talking about, b…
> Those who disagreed with Damore already won the battle.
No. Not yet. women still tend to be underpaid. Women make 72 cents to a male's $1 of wages for the same job.
As a white male, I don't care to "discuss" if women are my intellectual inferiors - which is exactly the point Damore was making ... and the point that YOU are making.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#764Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've met engineers who have expressed a belief that women are often hired if the recruiter found them attractive, and that those women shouldn't have been hired. While those engineers are able to find employment there will always be places where women don't feel welcome, even with diversity programs in place. It is simply the case that some engineers are grossly sexist and will always think a woman has been hired for…
Google doesn't operate that way, they has strict hiring policies and procedures. Recruiter or anyone else has no way to influence hiring without doing something shady (doing selective interview like what Damore claimed they were doing).
Damore literally said they were "lowering the bar". You can't have it both ways here.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#765Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…
I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…
> The message is unacceptable. That person is done, that person should be done.
This sounds like willfull ignorance, no matter how true something is you aren't allowed to say it because it might hurt some feelings.
I'd prefer to acknowledge reality.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#766[deleted]
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#767Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, what you're describing is Grahams Hierarchy of Disagreement. The original writing is here: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html And here it is in handy-dandy picture form: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Gr... Responding to tone is one level below an argument that actually addresses the point. Responses to tone can be safely dismissed as irrelevant t…
One of the basic contexts of the debate is the question of whether tech workplaces are hostile to women. The tone of the email making claims about women in the workplace is relevant.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#768Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, what you're describing is Grahams Hierarchy of Disagreement. The original writing is here: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html And here it is in handy-dandy picture form: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Gr... Responding to tone is one level below an argument that actually addresses the point. Responses to tone can be safely dismissed as irrelevant t…
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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#769Why has this topic exploded like it did now especially in the software engineering context? Whatever talent or affinity to abstract and inanimate things we do or don't assume being correlated with gender, isn't software engineering just a lighter version, compared to mathematics and physics? Did math and physics communities already have their internal crisis/debate on these things, perhaps a decade or two ago? Or hav…
Hmm, anectodally, both math and physics communities have significantly larger percentage of actual women graduating and working. At least here in EU - it's somewhere between 40-60% split depending on generation. I guess because of that there's actually more men used to actually working with women in those fields and they don't waste this much time trying to prove how women aren't worthy .
you might be interested to read this article where author touches on societal variation a bit: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#770I think it's very ironic that males took over the discussion that intended to seek our female opinion.