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Welcome, ACLU

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Re: Welcome, ACLU

#761

Post by 19guid »

literallycancer wrote: post #745
19guid wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think refusal of service is itself protected speech either, but we're not talking about the government restricting protected speech. We're talking about the government compelling an individual to engage in protected speech, like taking a wedding photograph. > The U.S. Supreme Court has said repeatedly that the First Amendment protects an "individual freedom of mind"—e.g., (1943), which affirmed the right not…

What's the difference between the wedding photographer who won't take a picture of a gay couple, and a bar/shop owner with "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish" policy?

Serving drinks is not protected speech; taking a photograph is.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#762

Post by lol214365 »

jlgaddis wrote: post #259
gthtjtkt wrote: post #181

So when we were dropping bombs on them it wasn't worth making an official statement, but now that they get held up at the border for a few hours it's suddenly worth talking about? I can't think of a case where the term "Virtue Signaling" is more apt.

Did a bunch of people just learn the term "virtue signaling" in the last few days? I don't recall seeing it spoken on here in ages but it seems I've read it 20 times in just the last few days. It reminds me of a child who learns a new, big word and then porceeds to use it in conversation (to "show off") as often as possible.

The left only started pretending like the world was ending in the past few weeks...

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#763

Post by ausjke »

tobltobs wrote: post #611
ausjke wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I UPVOTE you, even though I do not expect to discuss political issues at HN and I think HN was not encouraging that either,it somehow has the power to push its own political views such as ACLU to a developer like me. There are so many super-RICH Muslim countries nearby, why don't they take in refugees who share the same ideology first?

Although the UAE is the only country which took refuges, those "super-RICH Muslim countries still took about 25x times" more refuges then the US. Those not so rich muslim countries took about 100x times more then the US. > .. share the same ideology first. What kind of ideology you are talking about? Not brave (trumpist) enough to use the word religion?

Agnostic here so ideology means religion to me to some extent. Muslim is banned not because of its religion, but because of the terrorism it incurred,yes many of them are nice guys, but you do not need a lot to cause massive damages here, no safety, no democracy, it is that simple.

I do not save a snake from frozen for the purpose to show my great love to all beings, as it might kill me afterwards, very old story. Now let us save those inner cities innocent people in this land, and those homeless people first, be it a Muslim or not.

It's not religion, it is about safety.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#764

Post by wfo »

lol214365 wrote: post #710
joshfraser wrote: post #427

I've been a long time supporter of the ACLU. While they're being politicized right now as being anti-Trump, the thing I admire most about them is their consistency in fighting for the rights of everyone. They stick to their principles of free speech and human equality no matter how unpopular the issue or unsavory their client. A good example is back in the 1930s when the ACLU simultaneously defended the rights of bla…

The ACLU has completely deviated from their declared mission -- protecting civil liberties -- in recent weeks. The ACLU opposes a border wall. Who's civil liberties are violated by a border wall? The ACLU opposes the immigration and refugee EO. Who's civil liberties are violated by foreign nationals not being permitted into the United States?

Green card holding permanent residents of the US who were denied entry without due process are having their civil liberties violated. Everyone who was detained by CBP explicitly in illegal violation of the order of a federal judge had their civil liberties violated. Those parts of the order were rescinded because it was obviously illegal, but their rights were still denied.

That's the easiest, inarguable example.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#765

Post by wtvanhest »

grzm wrote: post #606
wtvanhest wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used the word 'mainly' because I understand that HN has always had some political conversation in the background. I have personally learned about immigration issues, digital privacy, etc. etc. on HN. Those are valuable things to understand, and I enjoyed reading about them. Now, it is clear that YC leadership has taken a highly liberal stand. I won't make a judgement on liberal or republican, but it feels more and…

HN is reflecting that in YC's movement. I think it's uncontroversial that there are likely a large number of HN members who have favorable opinions of Y Combinator. That said, I don't see evidence of Y Combinator exercising any kind of persuasion or manipulation of the members where one can reasonably say that HN members are following Y Combinator's lead. And there's enough vociferous, contentious, argumentative poli…

The last election clearly showed that dollars are not as important as they once were. Mobilizing individuals is now becoming more and more powerful and YC surely understands it.

I do appreciate your comment

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#766

Post by int_19h »

jrmurad wrote: post #260
del82 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain specifically how the ACLU is a left-leaning political organization, rather than an apolitical nonprofit?

Some "left-leaning" stances they take where I'm hard-pressed to see how they are defending civil rights, if not outright violating those of one party for the benefit of another: affirmative action: https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/affirmative-actio... voter id (are all the other countries that have this violating their citizens' civil rights?): https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...…

Regarding voter ID. "All those other countries" generally uniformly issue IDs to everyone, so there's no issue like there is here in US, where there are significant minorities that don't have any form of ID. For example, I'm from Russia, and I have the government-issued ID that I need to show to vote; but that ID was issued to me for free (and is in fact mandatory to have).

A voter ID is not discriminatory in principle, provided that it's free (since otherwise it'd be a poll tax), and does not place undue burden on the citizen to obtain - like, say, traveling several hours to the only nearby place that issues them, and then waiting for several more hours in a line because it's understaffed to serve all the people that need to get their IDs from it.

The problem is that pretty much all voter ID laws promoted or passed in US to date fail these requirements, and thus effectively constitute voter suppression.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#767

Post by mjmsmith »

dragonwriter wrote: post #756
lol214365 wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What civil liberties? You think it is a civil liberty that foreign nationals may enter the United States?

It's a civil liberty that the privilege of entry is not granted in manner which amounts to state favor to, or disfavor to, a particular religion. Entry of aliens itself is not a civil liberty.

From a legal standpoint. From a moral standpoint, denying entry to previously vetted residents with green cards who may have lived here legally for many years, purely on the basis of where they were born, is abhorrent. It's also the kind of thing that authoritarians don't mind at all because of their natural tendency to side with daddy over "those people".

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#768

Post by snowwrestler »

alanh wrote: post #590
joshfraser wrote: post #427

I've been a long time supporter of the ACLU. While they're being politicized right now as being anti-Trump, the thing I admire most about them is their consistency in fighting for the rights of everyone. They stick to their principles of free speech and human equality no matter how unpopular the issue or unsavory their client. A good example is back in the 1930s when the ACLU simultaneously defended the rights of bla…

You used the passive voice, “the ACLU are being politicized right now as being anti-Trump.” The ACLU, in their official communications and advertisements, have been actively and explicitly anti-Trump. Witness their current 'pinned tweet' for example: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/825805289572151298 I don’t really mind that, but let’s not ignore that the ACLU intentionally earned their reputation as an opponent of t…

They are telling people to fight back against Trump's executive orders that threaten civil liberties.

They are not anti-Trump, in that if Trump rescinded his problematic EOs, the ACLU would stop fighting him. The issue is not the man, it's the policy.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#769

Post by Miner49er »

beaconstudios wrote: post #738
Miner49er wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I can understand that viewpoint, it is logical. However, I'd argue that while liberty would be gained, it would come at the expense of there being more hate in the world. I personally don't think I would want to live in a society where people are denied service because of something about themselves that they cannot control.

forcing interaction doesn't remove that pre-existing hate though (I'd prefer the term prejudice because I know many christians don't hate gays). Forcing a christian bakery or a muslim pizzeria to cater to a gay wedding would just foster resentment at being compelled by the government to perform an action against their will. Freedom of association means that groups that don't want to interact, don't have to. For someo…

Depending on how the interaction plays out, there is a chance that prejudice would be reduced due to contact hypothesis, but it seems unlikely that the criteria would be met for most services. For some services like wedding photography, however, it seems likely that the criteria would be met and prejudice might be reduced.
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