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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#751

Post by ganeumann »

whiddershins wrote: post #731
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

I think, realistically, a spouse of a founder might be very involved in a company and decision making. Depending on the exact nature of the relationship, this is probably inevitable, very common, and not necessarily undesirable. There is a reason we give the president's wife a special title even though technically no one voted for her, many married couples are a team in the professional arena as well.

Oh no, no no no. Your life partner is there to support you, personally, through the difficulty of starting and growing a business (if you're lucky.) They should listen to you and maybe even give you some gentle advice. But when they show up at work and start meddling, there's no way that will go well.

Why would you even want that? It can't be good for the organization--because they are outside the normal chain of command and thus not really accountable for their actions, and because they have power not earned through an objective process--and it can't be good for your relationship. Just don't do it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#752

Post by dyno12345 »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #718
jjoonathan wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a huge chasm between ogling someone undertaking physical activity If anyone -- attractive man, unattractive man, attractive woman, unattractive woman -- started hula-hooping in the middle of the office I would expect people to stare. Not because it's sexual, but because it's peculiar. The gap between "stare" and "ogle" is hardly objective, let alone a "chasm."

Julie described the group of men as 'gawking'; as far as I'm aware, this is more or less interchangeable with the term 'ogling', in common use here in the UK. This is significantly different from just staring - it implies a sexual undercurrent, i.e. paying particular attention to someone's physical characteristics. Maybe this is a cultural thing, but the clear implication in the original report was that the staring/o…

Gawking is not sexual, ogling is. You can gawk at a bus accident, you can't ogle it.

Anyway, another account of the incident paints a very different picture of the scene:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408466

claiming that the gawking in question was undertaken by all present and not limited to men

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#753

Post by erikpukinskis »

derefr wrote: post #75
bitops wrote: post #53

As usual, another HN thread that perfectly exemplifies victim blaming and a collective burying of heads in the sand. There's a few people on here who seem to get it, but most don't. I'm sick of it. Goodbye, Hacker News.

Hackers, in my experience, have more shared experience in being naive enough socially to allow themselves to be baited into making statements which are later used against them, than in actually saying things (or even associating with others who would say things) which are intentionally malicious. We all understand fixing someone's computer and then being blamed for any problems it has from then on; or for making a so…

What is sexist is that I think many people have not actually invested the energy in figuring out what the distribution of X, Y, and Z are. I think X is actually much more common in this kind of scenario than Y or Z, and honestly I think anyone who has actually gained the trust of a few women in tech and heard stories about what it is like is pretty likely to see that too.

Anyone who throws their hands up and says "well I guess X, Y, and Z are equally probable" to me clearly has not actually spent time understanding the problem.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#754

Post by kolektiv »

jrockway wrote: post #691
jessaustin wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if that's meant to be "quit" or "quiet", but either works because upon becoming inanimate you're unlikely to do or say anything. b^)

Trying to correct someone else's grammar error exponentially increases the chances that you'll make your own.

Indeed, it's Muphry's Law.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#755

Post by grifpete »

maxcan wrote: post #738
buro9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff. Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-privat…

> The wife, and the husband (founder), have displayed an incredible lack of professionalism here. That assumes that the story, as told in the accusation, is completely accurate. One could envision a scenario where the founder felt his wife may be able to relate to the situation better and could actually assist the accuser. However, in spite of best intentions, its possible that the wife's actions were misinterpreted…

I don't pretend to have any info on what truly happened. But the story doesn't have to be 'completely accurate' for it to be disturbing. A company can't have family members browse around company offices and imposing themselves on employees with whom they have no professional or personal relationship. I find it very hard to understand how the wife's repeated presence can be favorably interpreted if it did indeed upset Horvath.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#756

Post by grifpete »

einhverfr wrote: post #504
psykotic wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? I laughed out loud when I read this and several other specific details in the story. It sounded very familiar. I have several friends and many acquaintances who work at Valve. One very senior engineer initially worked on Source 2 about three years ago but had to quickly switch projects because another, more tenured engineer was expressing his disag…

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

"I see nothing wrong with the involvement of founders' wives in the business"

This is nuts.

If person A works at a company then obviously their significant other (male or female) will likely talk with them about work situations and that may be more or less helpful to A and the company. But the idea that as a general rule a female significant other's contribution will be so significant just by virtue of the "level of complexity" of the "social thinking" is just absurd.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#757

Post by cbsmith »

couchand wrote: post #677
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the question should be asked very loud and clear... "Who can access private company data, why, and for what reason?" I am against using private github repos simply because: it's safe to assume that the NSA can access them via hardware backdoors on github's premises (as per many US ISPs), or by compromising crypto keys that github holds (as per lavabit). It's also safe to assume that github will be legally compelled…

Doesn't that apply equally to any shared hosting?

Actually, it applies equally to private hosting too.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#758

Post by derefr »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #753
derefr wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackers, in my experience, have more shared experience in being naive enough socially to allow themselves to be baited into making statements which are later used against them, than in actually saying things (or even associating with others who would say things) which are intentionally malicious. We all understand fixing someone's computer and then being blamed for any problems it has from then on; or for making a so…

What is sexist is that I think many people have not actually invested the energy in figuring out what the distribution of X, Y, and Z are. I think X is actually much more common in this kind of scenario than Y or Z, and honestly I think anyone who has actually gained the trust of a few women in tech and heard stories about what it is like is pretty likely to see that too. Anyone who throws their hands up and says "we…

You're doing exactly the thing people-who-are-oft-scapegoated are afraid of: equating "extremely probable" with "incontrovertibly proven."

In an actual trial, for a conviction to take place, evidence would have to be presented that leaves no room for reasonable doubt--which is to say, the evidence would have to effectively take Y/Z/etc. out of consideration.

We chose this standard because we, as a society, decided that there was something more important than making sure "justice is served" in all cases: making sure nobody has the power to condemn innocents at a whim by making up an "extremely probable" accusation.

But the court of public opinion has no such strict standard, even though the punishments it hands out can be far worse.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#759

Post by waterhouse »

kyberias wrote: post #570
Udo wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This info makes the last item of the article even more bizarre. I'm starting to think this was reported inaccurately by TC. Maybe she was really referring to a separate incident that happened at the hula dancing event, an incident we don't have any information about. Otherwise, this makes no sense.

It makes all the sense when you consider the possibility that she might be a person that specifically collects even the smallest pieces of evidence to support her theories of sexism and bigotry in the workplace.

Or that the TechCrunch reporter is writing the story at a certain angle, and asked for anything that could fit into that narrative. I think that, in the context of a certain sort of modern journalism, a version of Hanlon's razor is called for: "Never attribute to ideological slant that which is adequately explained as linkbait and sensationalism."

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#760

Post by grifpete »

a3n wrote: post #643
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

> The founder accused Horvath for bringing love affair into the company because she was/is dating an employee. The founder has a good point: try to avoid dating someone working with you. It's a beautiful story; but you can cause all sorts of mess. That's between the two people. Period. If they become problem employees, then they are problem employees, not two people who date. The problem behavior that happens on the…

Didn't the founder bring his love affair into the company? I assume he loves his wife?
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