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Can we have the day off?

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Re: Can we have the day off?

#751

Post by goatlover »

bwhiting2356 wrote: post #586
komali2 wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe i’m a cynical capitalist, but I expect everyone to be operating in their own self interest. Down to explore this with me? I often wonder if this is self fulfilling. I'm not saying you're selfish, I mean, has capitalism trained people that all people are inherently selfish, and then, within this system where selfishness is rewarded, incentivized further selfishness and continued to sell this myth? How much mai…

I see this as a bunch of unsolved game theory problems. USA vs Soviet Union I just see as a battle of competing empires. There have been competing empires for all of history, we haven’t figure out how not to do that yet. At the smaller scale, I’ve lived in coliving housing most of my adult life. Mostly positive, but problems that make people retreat away from cooperation. Once a week potluck but otherwise people cook…

But capitalism (and communism) are relatively recent economic developments. Most of human history was some form of hunter-gathering where cooperation inside the group was necessary for survival, with varying levels of cooperation and competition outside.

Should note that both the West & East included a lot of economic cooperation among countries within those competing Cold War economic models, even if there was coercion involved (and not just from the Soviets).

Re: Can we have the day off?

#752

Post by 9rx »

jandrese wrote: post #749
9rx wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Hence why productivity has increased while wages haven't. Wages have increased alongside the productivity increases of those wages, of course, but wages are decidedly for human labor, by very definition, not robot (computing, automation, whatever you want to call it) labor. If you want to capture the value of robots you need to use your human capacity to deploy robots, not to sell your labor.

That sounds like a roundabout way of saying that the capital owners have captured the gains from productivity without increasing the compensation to the workers. But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines. They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated. They're being asked to get more work done by being higher skilled, but the b…

> That sounds like a roundabout way of saying that the capital owners have captured the gains from productivity without increasing the compensation to the workers.

What do you mean in a roundabout way? It says that quite explicitly.

> But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines.

No they didn't. What is a capital owner going to do if the labor didn't become more skilled? Just shut everything down and take the ball home? Ha ha. No. Not a chance in hell. This is the silliest thing I've read all day.

> They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated.

One wonders why. When they said "go to college to make more money" they were clearly talking about using college research labs to develop capital. Exactly so that you become the one deploying robots, not selling your labor. That is where the "more money" comes from. How people — traditionally smart people, even — got it into their head that meant go to college to get a low paying job, the same job they would have gotten anyway, boggles the mind. I suppose smarts don't transcend into every subject.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#753

Post by abletonlive »

forcedtolinux wrote: post #615
abletonlive wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> before software developers were among those that were on the winning side, now they’re on the losing side. are you sure about that? i'm a software engineer and i feel like i'm on the wining side now, even more than before. I'm considering quitting my 500K a year job to go compete against the employers. they seem like dinosaurs to me.

you personally are winning, but 500k comp is an outlier and not the norm, especially now

You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying the 500K comp is not worth it and i want to quit to go compete against all the employers that are offering such comp. I am positioning myself to do it this year.

Software engineers have more leverage than ever.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#754

Post by llbeansandrice »

jchw wrote: post #741
llbeansandrice wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those flock cameras arrived in many places in the US bc people did not show up to public city council meetings to oppose them, aka “activism”.

Locally over here our city councils are overran with people who are anti Flock. Flock's strategy is to sneak their way in as if it is an "emergency". They've got a whole playbook. Normal activists don't stand a chance against well-funded adversaries.

This is just anticipatory obedience. Deciding that you've already lost before even trying is actively harmful, especially when paired with a lack of any other action.

If you don't believe in this system then start setting things on fire[0] I guess. Otherwise shut up, people are actually trying to fight it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Kimberly-Clark_distributi...

Re: Can we have the day off?

#755

Post by llbeansandrice »

achierius wrote: post #454
llbeansandrice wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those flock cameras arrived in many places in the US bc people did not show up to public city council meetings to oppose them, aka “activism”.

In many cities they just bring it up again and again until it passes. They only need to win once, we need to win every time. That's the problem.

This is anticipatory obedience and it's actively harmful.

You are also wrong. Contracts, ordinances, and everything related to governance get rolled back or changed all the time. Especially at the local level.

If you have lost the initial battle you can do the same thing as them: you keep attacking their presence and you only need to win once to undo it.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#756

Post by freeopinion »

cattown wrote: post #33

This article is kind of playful, but I think there’s a serious point here that’s not discussed enough. We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive. I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should…

If you take a 1x dev and a 2x dev and apply an AI force multiplier, do you get a 10x dev and a 20x dev? Or do you get two 10x devs?

If a human element is required to get value from AI, but any human will do, then devs should get minimum wage. If different humans have a different multiplier when you apply them to AI, they should be compensated accordingly. So if the 1x dev can get 5x out of AI, and the 2x dev can get 2x out of AI, you can fire the 2x2 dev, double the salary of the 1x5 dev, and be more productive for less money[1]. Or you can keep both devs, but pay the 1x5 dev slightly better than the 2x2 dev.

This is all assuming you have some valid way of measuring 1x, 2x, 1x5, and 2x2.

[1] Double salary doesn't have to include double insurance, vacation, etc. But there is also the cost of the AI, so...

Edit: markup

Re: Can we have the day off?

#757

Post by godelski »

theptip wrote: post #247
cattown wrote: post #33

This article is kind of playful, but I think there’s a serious point here that’s not discussed enough. We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive. I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should…

I think it’s pretty naive to ask your employer for a day off. As experienced by companies, the market is more competitive than ever. Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch. It’s a Prisoner’s Dilemma. The only way to get this outcome is to coordinate at a level higher than individual market participants. In other words, get your government to i…

  > Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch.
I hear this a lot but it seems another old saying is still true today: why is there always time to do it twice but never enough time to do it right?.

If you were right then there wouldn't be so much busy work, especially at big companies. They would have become more efficient, not less.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#758

Post by jchw »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #754
jchw wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locally over here our city councils are overran with people who are anti Flock. Flock's strategy is to sneak their way in as if it is an "emergency". They've got a whole playbook. Normal activists don't stand a chance against well-funded adversaries.

This is just anticipatory obedience. Deciding that you've already lost before even trying is actively harmful, especially when paired with a lack of any other action. If you don't believe in this system then start setting things on fire[0] I guess. Otherwise shut up, people are actually trying to fight it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Kimberly-Clark_distributi...

Like I said, I still participate. I just have absolutely zero hope this will get solved peacefully.

Feel free to spread naivity, but do not tell me to shut up, that is an endeavor less useful than any activism.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#759

Post by spixy »

apt-apt-apt-apt wrote: post #134
madrox wrote: post #65

The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose. It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it. The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, a…

Alright guys, I'm running for president. 4 day work weeks (8 hours each) for employees or prison.

Maybe don't force how many days people should work. Force number of hours (32) and let people decide, how many days...

Re: Can we have the day off?

#760

Post by godelski »

Gareth321 wrote: post #648
ixtli wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI without many other anti-capitalist reforms is just a subsidy paid directly to your landlord.

We don't want anti-capitalist reforms. Perhaps reforms like those we use in Denmark would make sense? We're ranked higher than the U.S. in ease of business. We love capitalism here. But we also have high taxes, universal healthcare, and great social safety nets. It allows us to lean into the great parts of capitalism while also protecting those for whom capitalism isn't working so well. It's a great compromise withou…

  > we also have high taxes
In plenty of places in the US we have high taxes and none of those things. Since it's HN I'll mention San Jose has some of the hardest water I've seen in any city and I've seen glass on the street for 6 mo before being cleaned up. I can't figure out where the taxes are actually going. Other states I've lived in I've even paid less and gotten way more.

I don't think people mind paying taxes, but it's when your taxes don't clearly benefit you that people get upset.

Honestly it seems to me like one party just wants to shift all costs to the poor (rather than the government) and the other wants to be the king of Nottingham. It's no surprise our citizens are feeling defeated. The choices appear to constantly be the lesser of two (geriatric) evils. Not choices between reasonable leaders, but with different beliefs

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