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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#751

Post by hiciu »

summm wrote: post #707
hiciu wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU's planned system requires highly invasive age verification EUDI wallets are connected to your government issued ID. There is no "highly invasive age verification". We are literally sending a request to our government's server to sign, with their private key, message "this john smith born on 1970-01-01 is aged over 18" + jwt iat. There are 3 claims in there. They are hashed with different salts. This all is signe…

> jailbreaking / "prevent tampering" Now your EU government requires you to have an unmodified Google or Apple device to use any age restricted services. Cementing the US mobile OS duopoly and locking out any free systems and desktop etc. forever. Any governmental service taking part in this is a violation of civil rights and even if you don't care about those, maybe you care about digital sovereignty. This is so lig…

I totally agree that one of the biggest vulnerabilities in EU digital ID scheme are US corporations :).

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#752

Post by keybored »

techblueberry wrote: post #432
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Heh, thank you.

I appreciate GPs point about giving “parents strong monitoring and restriction tools and empower them to protect their children”. That’s good. That acknowledges that we can and should give parents tools to deal with their kids and not let them fend for themselves (one nuclear family all alone) against the various algorithms, child group pressure, and so on.

But on the whole I’m tired of the road to serfdom framing on anything that regulates corporations.

Yes. Let’s be idealistic for a minute; the Internet was “supposed to” liberate us. Now we have to play Defense every damn day. And the best we have to offer is a false choice between nanny state and tech baron vulturism?

For a second just imagine. An Internet that empowers more than it enslaves. That makes us more equal. It’s difficult but you can try.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#753

Post by hunterpayne »

j45 wrote: post #546
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

The parents themselves weren't raised with the digital literacy required. This doesn't put the parents off the hooks, if you or anyone can share any resources that are as easily consumable, viral and applicable as the content that is the issue that can reach parents I would be happy to help it spread. The reality is kids today are facing the most advanced algorithms and even the most competent parents have a high bar…

> "The parents themselves weren't raised with the digital literacy required."

At this point, that isn't true anymore. There was social media when the parents were school aged. The world didn't start when you were 10 and the Internet is a half century old.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#754

Post by techblueberry »

Computer0 wrote: post #702
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

You sound like someone that would work for the CIA or FBI if they offered you a job. Those are the types of people that I cannot and will not ever trust. I do not respect your opinion.

You don't have to, but hilariously - I would never work for the CIA or FBA (I mean I can't, I think they require a college degree) but the most paranoid conspiracy-theorist libertarian hacker I ever knew did, and said it was the best work of his life. Ironic?

I'm going to move off-grid and become a sovereign citizen.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#755

Post by XorNot »

runako wrote: post #563
donmcronald wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. How? If it’s analyzes my ID 100% client side I can fake any info I want. If my ID goes to a server, it’s compromised IMO. I think the zero proof systems being touted are like ephemeral messaging in Snapchat. That is, we’re being sold something that’s impossible and it only “works”…

> If it’s analyzes my ID 100% client side I can fake any info I want. If my ID goes to a server, amplifying your point, there is effectively no way for the layperson to make this distinction. And because the app needs to send data over an encrypted channel, it would be difficult at best for a sophisticated person to determine whether their info is being sent over the wire.

This is a fairly weak argument though: the layperson also cannot verify the software updates we push to their phone/computer or any number of other critical devices in the chain.

All of this is reputation management: if technical experts broadly agree the system does what it says, then all of us have to accept that in aggregate that's probably good enough and significantly better then many other areas.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#756

Post by hunterpayne »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #610
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

> We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. It’s not a fair fight. These are multi-billion dollar companies with international reach and decades of investment and research weaponized against us to make us all little addicts. Additionally, it’s not fair or reasonable to ask parents to screen literally everything their kids do with a screen at all times any…

You are screwed but not for the reason you claim. Its because you don't take any accountability for yourself. There is/was no hope for someone who does that at any point in human history. Is it fair? Nope...but it also doesn't mean you have 0 autonomy.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#757

Post by abustamam »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #711
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just like, can't help but start with fuck these companies. All other arguments are downstream of that. The solution would then be to break them up or do things like require adversarial interoperability, rather than ineffective non-sequiturs like requiring them to ID everyone. The perverse incentive comes from a single company sitting on a network effect. You have to use Facebook because other people use Facebook,…

> ineffective non-sequiturs like requiring them to ID everyone. Is that really a non-sequitur though? Cigarettes are harmful and addictive so their sale is age gated. So too for alcohol. Gambling? Also yes. So wouldn't age gating social media be entirely consistent in that case? Not that I'm necessarily in favor of it. I agree that various other regulations, particularly interoperability, would likely address at leas…

If I went to the store and asked for a pack of cigarettes, I show my ID (well, I would if I was carded, but I'm no longer carded :)) and the clerk looks at it, maybe scans it, then takes my money.

If I try to go to an adult website, or even just a discord server with adult content, I need to upload my ID. And now there's numerous third parties who now are looking at my ID, and I have no idea if I can trust them with my info. Indeed, I probably can't, given how many of them have already been breached.

Of all the people, PornHub actually has a pretty good write-up on this (1) (2), and they refer to "device-based" age verification, where you verify your identity once to say, Google or whoever. Then your device proves your age. Fewer middlemen. One source of truth.

I am not against age verification. I am against the surveillance state.

(1) https://www.pornhub.com/blog/age-verification-in-the-news

(2) https://www.xbiz.com/news/281228/opinion-why-device-based-ag...

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#758

Post by txrx0000 »

inejge wrote: post #659
txrx0000 wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to give individual users control over their own device than to give a centralized authority control over what happens on everyone's device over the Internet. Local user-controlled toggles are just easier to implement. All parental moderation mechanisms can and should be implemented as opt-in on-device settings. What governments need to do is pressure companies to implement those on-device settings. A…

> we invented this new thing called fire [...] So the tribe leader (who, by the way, gropes your children) proposed a solution: centralize control of all the fire Of all the things, a "save-the-children prolegomena to the Prometheus myth" certainly wasn't on my bingo card today. So thank you for that, but I'm not aware of any reports of fire-keeping in the way you've described. Societies and religions do have sacred…

I'll spell it out for you since you can't read between the lines. It's not actually about fire-keeping in tribes to protect children. It's about certain people (governments, corporations, organizations) wanting control over the Internet and everyone's digital communications. They don't want a free marketplace of ideas and uncensored channels of communication because their propaganda narratives would not survive.

The tribe leader refers to certain rich and powerful folks that have infiltrated governments and are running some of the largest businesses.

The fire refers to instant communication over the Internet. This relatively new technology has the potential to paralyze old power structures and reshape civilization. It's understandable why governments et al are panicking. They know their authority will wane under global free speech unless they do something.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#759

Post by tolerance »

mikestorrent wrote: post #677
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

> give parents strong monitoring and restriction tools The problem is that it's bloody hard to actually do this. I'm in a war with my 7yo about youtube; the terms of engagement are, I can block it however I want from the network side, and if he can get around it, he can watch. Well, after many successful months of DNS block, he discovered proxies. After blocking enough of those to dissuade him, he discovered Firefox…

At this point why not just emancipate him. Hook him up with an easy remote job, put a lock on his bedroom and hand him the keys, and make him start paying rent. Because I’m having trouble figuring out what part of society you’re preparing him for at this stage. Respectfully.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#760

Post by steve_taylor »

Pxtl wrote: post #462

All of my kids devices are identified, at device level, as children's devices. They could've trivially exposed this as metadata to allow sites to enforce "no under 18" use. However, I'd disagree that my bigger concern for my kids isn't that they'd see a boob or a penis, but that they'd see an influencer who'd try to radicalize them to some extremist cause, and that's usually not considered 18+ content. And either way…

The problem with that is that sites/apps will retain the identifier, either to use the Digital ID for login (not just one-time age verification), because they want to retain as much information as possible for later usage or sale, or because a government told them they have to retain it so all their social media activity can be easily linked to them.
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