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Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

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Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#751

Post by abc123abc123 »

dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

WTF? How are you attacked by russian accounts? This childish notion of thinking that only "true" thoughts are allowed under free speech, and the rest must be eradicated needs to die.

If you don't like the risk of russian accounts, don't follow them, and follow accounts that you like. It's as easy as that.

You have news, government news sites, journalists, newspapers, it's never been easier to find sources to trust and compare them against each other.

Screaming murder because Sergei6778 says that Ukraine is evil is just stupid. Take responsibility for your own reading and mind, and stop using the law as a hamfisted tool to stop free speech. Take the bad with the good, or else there won't be any good left in the future.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#752

Post by 7bit »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #745
dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

How is Cloudflare refusing to comply with DNS censorship even remotely related to propaganda campaigns conducted by the geopolitical opponent of your personal choosing? Not only does it seem like you've gone off topic to push a personal agenda, you're presenting a false dichotomy. We could (if we wanted to) wall our networks off along national boundaries while still preserving freedom of speech within our enclave. I…

[flagged]

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#753

Post by duskdozer »

burkaman wrote: post #495
pixl97 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right to vote doesn't exist because you didn't have to defeat the entire army to vote against their leader, I would say you're wrong. The right to vote does exist because men rose up together and fought leaders that wouldn't let them vote. And, when leaders rise up that take our right to vote and we don't stop them they will prevail. > it's just that everyone on the planet with a weapon has coincidentally decid…

I am not saying it's impossible for rights to be taken away, I am arguing against this statement: > If you can't defend yourself against that then you have no rights. I do not own a gun and I have no fighting skills, so I cannot defend myself against men with guns. Would you agree that I therefore have no rights? I think that you and the original poster are seeing the situation "you are vulnerable to potentially losi…

Philosophically, no. Practically, no, as long as someone desires and is able to defend them, otherwise yes.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#754

Post by selfmodruntime »

xdennis wrote: post #598
gpm wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been very clear that the Trump adminstrations definition of freedom of speech, including JD Vance's, is that you should be free to say whatever the Trump administration wants and nothing else. They have consistently prosecuted, threatened, deported, withheld money from, and so on people who say things they do not like.

And the answer to that is to point out the hypocrisy (what you're doing), not to take the opposite view, that censorship is important (what so many others are doing when Trump takes a position on anything).

Yes! That is it!

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#756

Post by SergeAx »

This is a continuation of LaLiga vs Cloudflare in Spain. Spaniards are just blocking the whole CF IP ranges during the broadcast of important sports games, shutting down half the internet altogether. Italians are trying another way.

I can't ad hoc the best solution for all, but asking for help from Elon Musk and JD Vance, two prominent borderline fascist figures of our time, is disturbing.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#757

Post by Ikatza »

dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

Freedom of speech is binary, there aren't any acceptable degrees of it: either you have it, or you don't.

If there is disinformation, the solution is to counter it with actual information, to give the people better tools to identify it (like X's community notes), and to educate the general population so they will have better critical thinking.

Restricting freedom of speech is never a solution. How long until dissenting opinions are censored because somebody labels them "disinformation"? Who watches the watchmen? etc.

I'd rather live in a society with full freedom of speech and disinformation from State actors than have only 100% accurately vetted news.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#758

Post by tsimionescu »

miki123211 wrote: post #619
asa400 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the consequences of outsourcing this (and other capabilities) to the private sector. Many governments simply don’t have the skill and political will to invest in these kinds of capabilities, which puts them at the mercy of private actors that do. Not saying this is good or bad, just trying to describe it as I see it.

Governments just can't come to grips with how much money software engineers make. Paying a contractor $x million? Yeah no problem, projects are projects, they cost what they cost. Does that $x million pay for 5x fewer people than it would in construction or road repair? We don't know, we don't care, this is the best bid we got for the requirements, and in line with what similar IT projects cost us before. Paying a ju…

> Paying a junior employee $100k? "We can't do that, the agency director has worked here for 40 years, and he doesn't make that much."

I can assure you that junior software engineers in Italy or anywhere else in the EU make nowhere near that amount of money. In fact, few of even the most senior software engineers make that amount of money anywhere in the EU (in Switzerland or the UK they might see such salaries, at the higher tiers).

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#759

Post by fc417fc802 »

7bit wrote: post #752
fc417fc802 wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Cloudflare refusing to comply with DNS censorship even remotely related to propaganda campaigns conducted by the geopolitical opponent of your personal choosing? Not only does it seem like you've gone off topic to push a personal agenda, you're presenting a false dichotomy. We could (if we wanted to) wall our networks off along national boundaries while still preserving freedom of speech within our enclave. I…

[flagged]

Well, yeah, I suppose that on occasion a view expressed by an American could happen to overlap with the propaganda of any given geopolitical adversary. Similar to the principle of a broken clock being right twice a day.

I have to say though, reflexively responding in that manner gives the impression of being quite radicalized. I don't think that's the level of discourse expected on HN.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#760

Post by aforwardslash »

yibg wrote: post #570
aforwardslash wrote: post #361

Regardless of whether the law is absurd or not (I honestly have no idea, but we've seen some crazy stuff lately in the EU), its kinda precious that a CEO only complains about it when his company is fined. I'm certain it is also quite reassuring for any paying Cloudflare customer that the company strategy is driven by the CEO Twitter rants; That if by some reason doesn't want to play ball with local laws (as draconian…

Style aside, what do you think he should do? Faced with a law that not only imposes disproportionate fines (more than revenue from the country), but on the surface also requires blocking globally, there are really only a few things to do: 1. Challenge the law in court 3. Influence the law via political means 3. Try to sway public opinion so 2. may be easier 4. Give in and play ball 5. Exit the country entirely

What did the other major companies do?
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