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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote your comment one word at a time, with the next word depending on the previous words written. You did not plan the entire thing, every word, ahead of time. LLMs do the same thing, so... how is your intelligence any different?

Tell that to German-speakers, where the verb comes last, and the order of things in sentences is not anything like English, therefore requiring you to think of the entire sentence before you just spit it out. Even the numbers are backwards (twenty-two is two-and-twenty) which requires thinking. Furthermore, when you ask an LLM to count how many r's are in the word strawberry, it will give you a random answer, "think"…

It seems models are pre-planning though:

> How does Claude write rhyming poetry? Consider this ditty:

> He saw a carrot and had to grab it,

> His hunger was like a starving rabbit

> To write the second line, the model had to satisfy two constraints at the same time: the need to rhyme (with "grab it"), and the need to make sense (why did he grab the carrot?). Our guess was that Claude was writing word-by-word without much forethought until the end of the line, where it would make sure to pick a word that rhymes. We therefore expected to see a circuit with parallel paths, one for ensuring the final word made sense, and one for ensuring it rhymes.

> Instead, we found that Claude plans ahead. Before starting the second line, it began "thinking" of potential on-topic words that would rhyme with "grab it". Then, with these plans in mind, it writes a line to end with the planned word.

[https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language...]

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#752

I'm not going to read this -- I don't need to. The replies here are embarrassing enough. This is what happens when our entire culture revolves around the idea that computer programmers are the most special smartest boys. If you even entertain even for a second the idea that a computer program that a human wrote is "thinking", then you don't understand basic facts about: (1) computers, (2) humans, and (3) thinking. Ou…

This is one of the least curious posts I've seen on HN. We have been thinking about thinking for millenia, and no, Buddhists don't have it figure out. Nobody does. LLMs are the most significant advancement in "thinking science" in a long, long time. It is clear that they are doing something a lot like thinking, if it is not thinking. They seem to think more than most people I know, including the person I'm responding to.

I think people conflate thinking with sentience, consciousness, and a whole lot of other concerns.

Clearly this website is not for you and your complete lack of curiosity if you call us "sicko freaks".

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If cannot the say they are "thinking", "intelligent" while we do not have a good definition--or, even more difficult, unanimous agreement on a definition--then the discussion just becomes about output. They are doing useful stuff, saving time, etc, which can be measured. Thus also the defintion of AGI has largely become: "can produce or surpass the economic output of a human knowledge worker". But I think this detrac…

Heres a definition. How impressive is the output relative to the input. And by input, I don't just mean the prompt, but all the training data itself. Do you think someone who has only ever studied pre-calc would be able to work through a calculus book if they had sufficient time? how about a multi-variable calc book? How about grad level mathematics? IMO intelligence and thinking is strictly about this ratio; what ca…

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. You seem to be on purpose comparing apples and oranges here: for an AI, we're supposed to include the entire training set in the definition of its input, but for a human we don't include the entirety of that human's experience and only look at the prompt?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#754
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we could probably agree that human intelligence is Turing-complete (with a slightly sloppy use of terms). > So any other Turing-complete model can emulate it You're going off the rails IMMEDIATELY in your logic. Sure, one Turing-complete computer language can have its logic "emulated" by another, fine. But human intelligence is not a computer language -- you're mixing up the terms "Turing complete" and "Turing test…

Game of life, PowerPoint, and a bunch of non-PL stuff are all Turing-complete. I don't mix up terms, I did use a slightly sloppy terminology but it is the correct concept - and my point is that we don't know of a computational model that can't be expressed by a Turing-machine, humans are a physical "machine", ergo we must also fall into that category. Give my comment another read, but it was quite understandable from…

Again, you're going wildly off the rails in your logic. Sure, "executable by a human" is part of the definition for Turing machines, but that's only talking about Turing-specific capabilities. If you want to argue that a Turing machine can emulate the specific definition of Turing machine capabilities that humans can perform, that's fine. But you're saying that because humans can ACT LIKE Turing machines, they must BE Turing machines, and are therefore emulatable.

This is the equivalent of saying "I have set up a complex mechanical computer powered by water that is Turing complete. Since any Turing complete system can emulate another one, it means that any other Turing complete system can also make things wet and irrigate farms.

Human intelligence is not understood. It can be made to do Turing complete things, but you can't invert that and say that because you've read the paper on Turing completeness, you now understand human intelligence.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#755

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

I don’t see how being critical of this is a knee jerk response. Thinking , like intelligence and many other words designating complex things, isn’t a simple topic. The word and concept developed in a world where it referred to human beings, and in a lesser sense, to animals. To simply disregard that entire conceptual history and say, “well it’s doing a thing that looks like thinking, ergo it’s thinking” is the lazy m…

That, and the article was a major disappointment. It made no case. It's a superficial piece of clueless fluff.

I have had this conversation too many times on HN. What I find astounding is the simultaneous confidence and ignorance on the part of many who claim LLMs are intelligent. That, and the occultism surrounding them. Those who have strong philosophical reasons for thinking otherwise are called "knee-jerk". Ad hominem dominates. Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

So LLMs produce output that looks like it could have been produced by a human being. Why would it therefore follow that it must be intelligent? Behaviorism is a non-starter, as it cannot distinguish between simulation and reality. Materialism [2] is a non-starter, because of crippling deficiencies exposed by such things as the problem of qualia...

Of course - and here is the essential point - you don't even need very strong philosophical chops to see that attributing intelligence to LLMs is simply a category mistake. We know what computers are, because they're defined by a formal model (or many equivalent formal models) of a syntactic nature. We know that human minds display intentionality[0] and a capacity for semantics. Indeed, it is what is most essential to intelligence.

Computation is a formalism defined specifically to omit semantic content from its operations, because it is a formalism of the "effective method", i.e., more or less procedures that can be carried out blindly and without understanding of the content it concerns. That's what formalization allows us to do, to eliminate the semantic and focus purely on the syntactic - what did people think "formalization" means? (The inspiration were the human computers that used to be employed by companies and scientists for carrying out vast but boring calculations. These were not people who understood, e.g., physics, but they were able to blindly follow instructions to produce the results needed by physicists, much like a computer.)

The attribution of intelligence to LLMs comes from an ignorance of such basic things, and often an irrational and superstitious credulity. The claim is made that LLMs are intelligent. When pressed to offer justification for the claim, we get some incoherent, hand-wavy nonsense about evolution or the Turing test or whatever. There is no comprehension visible in the answer. I don't understand the attachment here. Personally, I would find it very noteworthy if some technology were intelligent, but you don't believe that computers are intelligent because you find the notion entertaining.

LLMs do not reason. They do not infer. They do not analyze. They do not know, anymore than a book knows the contents on its pages. The cause of a response and the content of a response is not comprehension, but a production of uncomprehended tokens using uncomprehended rules from a model of highly-calibrated token correlations within the training corpus. It cannot be otherwise.[3]

[0] For the uninitiated, "intentionality" does not specifically mean "intent", but the capacity for "aboutness". It is essential to semantic content. Denying this will lead you immediately into similar paradoxes that skepticism [1] suffers from.

[1] For the uninitiated, "skepticism" here is not a synonym for critical thinking or verifying claims. It is a stance involving the denial of the possibility of knowledge, which is incoherent, as it presupposes that you know that knowledge is impossible.

[2] For the uninitiated, "materialism" is a metaphysical position that claims that of the dualism proposed by Descartes (which itself is a position riddled with serious problems), the res cogitans or "mental substance" does not exist; everything is reducible to res extensa or "extended substance" or "matter" according to a certain definition of matter. The problem of qualia merely points out that the phenomena that Descartes attributes exclusively to the former cannot by definition be accounted for in the latter. That is the whole point of the division! It's this broken view of matter that people sometimes read into scientific results.

[3] And if it wasn't clear, symbolic methods popular in the 80s aren't it either. Again, they're purely formal. You may know what the intended meaning behind and justification for a syntactic rule is - like modus ponens in a purely formal sense - but the computer does not.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> We also just brute force "autocompletion" Wouldn't be an A.I. discussion without a bizarre, untrue claim that the human brain works identically.

There are no true and untrue claims about how the brain works, because we have no idea how it works. The reason people give that humans are not auto-complete is "Obviously I am not an autocomplete" Meanwhile, people are just a black box process that output words into their head, which they then take credit for, and calling it cognition. We have no idea how that black box that serves up a word when I say "Think of a c…

Accepting as true "We don't know how the brain works in a precise way" does not mean that obviously untrue statements about the human brain cannot still be made. Your brain specifically, however, is an electric rat that pulls on levers of flesh while yearning for a taste of God's holiest cheddar. You might reply, "no! that cannot be!", but my statement isn't untrue, so it goes.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#757
post #742

In some realpolitik/moral sense, does it matter whether it is actually "thinking", or "conscious", or has "autonomy" / "agency" of its own? What seems to matter more is if enough people believe that Claude has those things. If people credibly think AI may have those qualities, it behooves them to treat the AI like any other person they have a mostly-texting relationship with. Not in a utility-maximizing Pascal's Wage…

I know humans have a huge tendency to anthropomorphize inanimate objects and get emotionally attached to them, but watching how people treat inanimate objects is very interesting. I know devices are not alive, cognizant, or having feelings, but by thanking them and being encouraging I'm exercising my empathic and "nice" muscles. It has nothing to do with the object and everything to do with myself.

And then you have the people who go out of their way to be hateful towards them, as if they were alive and deserving of abuse. It's one thing to treat a device like an Alexa as just a tool with no feelings. It is another to outright call it hateful sexist slurs, of which I'm sadly familiar with. This low empathy group scares me the most because with the way they treat objects, well let me just say they're not so nice with other people they think are beneath them, like wait staff or call center employees. I'd go so far and say if the law allowed it they'd be even be violent with those they deem inferior.

Regardless if LLM are thinking or not I feel I get better responses from the models by being polite. Not because they appreciate it or have an awareness, but simply because the data they are trained on includes samples where people who are nice to others get better responses than those who were nasty when asking questions.

Besides, if one day AGI is born into existence, a lot of people will not recognize it as such. There are humans who don't believe other people are sentient (we're all NPCs to them), or even don't believe animals have feelings. We'll have credible experts denying the evidence until it bites us all in the arse. Why wait to act ethically?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, a model by itself with data that emits a bunch of human written words is literally no different than what JIRA does when it reads a database table and shits it out to a screen, except maybe a lot more GPU usage. Obviously, it is different or else we would just use JIRA and a database to replace GPT. Models very obviously do NOT store training data in the weights in the way you are imagining. >So basically if y…

But LLMs are effectively a very complex if/else if tree: if the user types "hi" respond with "hi" or "bye" or "..." you get the point. It's basically storing the most probably following words (tokens) given the current point and its history. That's not a brain and it's not thinking. It's similar to JIRA because it's stored information and there are if statements (admins can do this, users can do that). Yes it is more…

This is a pretty tired argument that I don't think really goes anywhere useful or illuminates anything (if I'm following you correctly, it sounds like the good old Chinese Room, where "a few slips of paper" can't possibly be conscious).

Yes it is more complex, but it's nowhere near the complexity of the human or bird brain that does not use clocks, does not have "turing machines inside", or any of the other complete junk other people posted in this thread.

The information in Jira is just less complex, but it's in the same vein of the data in an LLM, just 10^100 times more complex. Just because something is complex does not mean it thinks.

So, what is the missing element that would satisfy you? It's "nowhere near the complexity of the human or bird brain", so I guess it needs to be more complex, but at the same time "just because something is complex does not mean it thinks".

Does it need to be struck by lightning or something so it gets infused with the living essence?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say, they are all doing the same, just in different domains and level of quality. "Understanding the topic" only means they have specialized, deeper contextualized information. But at the end, that student also just autocompletes their memorized data, with the exception that some of that knowledge might trigger a program they execute to insert the result in their completion. The actual work is in gaining the know…

> only means they have specialized, deeper contextualized information no, LLMs can have that contextualized information. understanding in a reasoning sense means classifying the thing and developing a deterministic algorithm to process it. If you don't have a deterministic algorithm to process it, it isn't understanding. LLMs learn to approximate, we do that too, but then we develop algorithms to process input and ge…

> understanding in a reasoning sense means classifying the thing and developing a deterministic algorithm to process it.

That's the learning-part I was talking about. Which is mainly supported by humans at the moment, which why I called it proto-intelligence.

> If you don't have a deterministic algorithm to process it, it isn't understanding.

Commercial AIs like ChatGPT do have the ability to call programs and integrate the result in their processing. Those AIs are not really just LLMs. The results are still rough and poor, but the concept is there and growing.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#760
post #742

In some realpolitik/moral sense, does it matter whether it is actually "thinking", or "conscious", or has "autonomy" / "agency" of its own? What seems to matter more is if enough people believe that Claude has those things. If people credibly think AI may have those qualities, it behooves them to treat the AI like any other person they have a mostly-texting relationship with. Not in a utility-maximizing Pascal's Wage…

> Conversely if you're able to have a fulfilling, empathetic relationship with Claude, it might help people form fulfilling, mutually-empathetic relationships with the humans around them.

Well, that's kind of the point: if you have actually used LLMs for any amount of time, you are bound to find out that you can't have a fulfilling, empathetic relationship with them. Even if they offer a convincing simulacrum of a thinking being at first sight, you will soon find out that there's not much underneath. It generates grammatically perfect texts that seem to answer your questions in a polite and knowledgeable way, but it will happily lie to you and hallucinate things out of thin air. LLMs are tools, humans are humans (and animals are animals - IMHO you can have a more fulfilling relationship with a dog or a cat than you can have with an LLM).

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