Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

751–760 of 894 posts

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#751

Post by fjdjshsh »

kennywinker wrote: post #702
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't every army conduct "mass surveillance"? What do you think all those satellites with cameras are doing orbiting the planet? Wouldn't the opposite be incredibly immoral? Attacking/bombing/etc without large scale surveillance would largely mean increased collateral damage.

Perhaps the actual moral choice isn’t attacking blindly or mass surveillance of an occupied nation - it’s peace? Regardless, the death toll in gaza (somewhere between 45,000 and 600,000) suggests that this mass surveillance isn’t being used effectively to reduce the death toll. It also doesn’t take mass surveillance to know that bombing hospitals and schools is going to kill innocent people.

You're assuming the objective is to lower the civilian casualties. From the statements of prominent Israeli ministers and the actual behavior of the bombardment it's pretty clear that, for the Israeli government, killing civilians is a feature, not a bug

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#752

Post by fjdjshsh »

sir0010010 wrote: post #742
ycombigators wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be pretty difficult for the IDF to increase their level of collateral damage.

In 1945, about ~90k people died over 2 days from the Tokyo Firebombing. Do you think it would be difficult for any modern millitary - that intentionally wanted to cause as much collateral damage as possible - to greatly exceed that number?

Not sure what is your point. The Israeli military could throw a few atomic bombs and wipe out the entire population in Gaza. That they don't is a sign of restraint for you?

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#753

Post by GOD_Over_Djinn »

sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #386
Forgeties79 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every protest we praise in history broke the law at some point. “Promote company-hating propaganda” is an interesting way to describe what happened.

Building a website on internal Microsoft infra that ledes with a picture of "Azure Kills Kids" is beyond the pale.

How can it be “beyond the pale” when it is quite literally true?

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#754

Post by computerex »

Manuel_D wrote: post #730
computerex wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word genocide has a legal definition, it’s not up for discussion or debate. What is happening in Gaza is a genocide according to genocide scholars.

The definition of genocide is absolutely up for debate. And even legal definition (presumably you mean UN definition) is highly subjective, too. Less than 1% of Palestinians have been killed since Oct 7. Germany saw 10% of its population killed in WW2. France lost 4% in WW1. Why the former is a genocide but not the latter two is a pretty big hole in the logic behind the allegations of genocide.

Any "debate" is for the courts, not a subject of debate for hacker news. People don't debate the definition of murder/rape. Genocide is a legal term.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#755

Post by komali2 »

skinkestek wrote: post #253
komali2 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Again, it's time to open your eyes, you are on the wrong side of history.

The world isn't against you, it's against what Israel is doing to Palestine. You don't have to dig your heels in.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#756

Post by sc68cal »

meowface wrote: post #738
pcthrowaway wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas was established in 1984, by the generation that had grown up with the occupation in 1948 Correction, Gaza was first occupied by Israel for a few months in 1956, then occupied continuously since 1967. Regardless, by 1984, nearly half of the people in Gaza would have lived their entire lives under occupation, and the most would have lived at least half their lives under occupation.

Didn't Israel end the occupation of Gaza between 2005 and 2023? They still put up a blockade, but they didn't occupy it.

Israel may have withdrawn from Gaza and forcibly removed their settlers, but they did not end the occupation since they created a naval blockade and control all entrance and exits from Gaza and decide what is allowed in for two decades

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#757

Post by Manuel_D »

computerex wrote: post #754
Manuel_D wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of genocide is absolutely up for debate. And even legal definition (presumably you mean UN definition) is highly subjective, too. Less than 1% of Palestinians have been killed since Oct 7. Germany saw 10% of its population killed in WW2. France lost 4% in WW1. Why the former is a genocide but not the latter two is a pretty big hole in the logic behind the allegations of genocide.

Any "debate" is for the courts, not a subject of debate for hacker news. People don't debate the definition of murder/rape. Genocide is a legal term.

What court? Presumably you're taking about the ICJ? It only stated that allegations of genocide is "plausible". The grandparent comment is about a human rights commission, not a court.

Also, the ICJ only has jurisdiction when states consent to its authority. And the UN security council can veto any decision. It's essentially a show court.

And again, people endlessly debate what is and isn't rape and murder. Judges and juries make the decision at the end of the day, and people still debate whether their decision was correct. If anything, drawing parallels to murder and rape only serve to highlight how subjective it is.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#758

Post by AtlasBarfed »

komali2 wrote: post #209
rashkov wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ICC did no such thing, you're probably thinking of the ICJ, which also did no such thing according to one of the judges that ruled on that decision: “I’m glad I have a chance to address that because the court’s test for deciding whether to impose measures uses the idea of plausibility. But the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa” she told the BBC sh…

It is interesting to me that all this sweat and tears are spent deliberating over the use of a word in faraway courts while all of us can see with our eyes the horrors Palestinians are subjected to by the occupying IDF. "We didn't say there was a genocide! We acknowledged the plausibility of the possibility that potentially maybe an investigation might perhaps occur into the possibility of maybe Palestinians being ab…

Nobody stops it because it's not worth it, for whatever you want to measure "it" by.

Israel-Palestine used to be really important, because it was a surrogate conflict for Western vs Arab control of the Middle East, and what that is really about is of course oil.

The Arab-Israeli wars of the 1950s/1960s were direct conflicts, but it became apparent that the West wouldn't let Israel lose because Israel represents the latent threat of Western invasion if the Arabs ever really turned off the oil spigot.

So the Palestinians became the thorn for the Middle East to keep Israel at bay, so you get strange bedfellows of Iran and Qatar (Sunni and Shiite) funding them, and Hezbollah in Lebanon.

But a funny thing happened over 75 years of relative stability of borders and global trade: the status quo established itself, oil price and supply was managed and stabilized, security agreements established and backed up (with the Iraq invasion of Kuwait). Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Israel in fact are effectively allies against Iran and Turkey.

And the US has its own supply of oil with Dakota shale oil. A FUCKTON of it. So strangely, the Arabian peninsula isn't afraid of the US. They are afraid of Iran and Turkey. And who has the best army to counteract Iran and Turkey?

Israel.

The Palestinians don't have a geopolitical use anymore. The Palestinians used to number around 400,000. Now? They number 4,000,000. That is ... not good. The Palestinians have no economy, and rely almost entirely on external aid. So the scope of a humanitarian burden on Arab sponsors has risen from 400,000 people to 4,000,000 people. AGAIN: the humanitarian burden has risen by a factor of 10, while their geopolitical value has DECREASED, almost evaporated.

And that is without the decreasing value of oil from EVs/alt energy and the long term specter of global warming.

That is NOT GOOD for the Palestinians.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#759

Post by jlawson »

fjdjshsh wrote: post #752
sir0010010 wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1945, about ~90k people died over 2 days from the Tokyo Firebombing. Do you think it would be difficult for any modern millitary - that intentionally wanted to cause as much collateral damage as possible - to greatly exceed that number?

Not sure what is your point. The Israeli military could throw a few atomic bombs and wipe out the entire population in Gaza. That they don't is a sign of restraint for you?

The point is that they could do similar attacks to the Tokyo firebombing (or much worse), but choose not to.

Yes, that is a sign of restraint, obviously.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#760

Post by kennywinker »

amscanne wrote: post #713
kennywinker wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the actual moral choice isn’t attacking blindly or mass surveillance of an occupied nation - it’s peace? Regardless, the death toll in gaza (somewhere between 45,000 and 600,000) suggests that this mass surveillance isn’t being used effectively to reduce the death toll. It also doesn’t take mass surveillance to know that bombing hospitals and schools is going to kill innocent people.

Even the Gaza Health Ministry claims only 68,000, so I presume that your 600,000 is a typo.

Unfortunately not a typo:

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/press-briefing-francesca...

“65,000 is the number of Palestinians are certain killed, including over, of which 75% are women and children.

In fact, we shall start the thinking of 680,000, because this is the number that some scholars and scientists claim being the real death toll in Gaza.

And it would be hard to be able to prove or disprove this number, especially if investigators and others remained banned from entering the occupied Palestinian territory, and particularly the Gaza Strip.”

The death toll could be that high. I hope to hell it isn’t. But we don’t know and won’t know until the killing stops. We do know that tens of thousands of innocent people have been killed, and at least 150,000 people injured.

Post reply on HN