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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#751

Post by dudeinhawaii »

tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading.

Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay.

Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation).

Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#752

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

alephnerd wrote: post #707
TimPC wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary inflation is much trickier to measure because it is confounded by years of experience increasing, getting promotions, etc. The distribution of the working population by seniority also changes over time so it's not self-correcting across the distribution. Assuming you have a good way of measuring it, (salary inflation/price inflation) would be an interesting Financial Quality of Life measure.

You can use real median household income [0] and real median personal income [1] to gauge potential salary inflation (real meaning CPI adjusted). The median American household and American has gotten significantly richer than in 2005, but in the 2020-23 period, income growth slowed due to the pandemic and the subsequent slow restart of the economy. The last time we saw similar retractions were during recessions like…

(Just an aside that median household income will of course be affected by the changing composition of households towards multi income families.)

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#753

Post by mattmaroon »

infecto wrote: post #642
reliabilityguy wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some information on this, please?

State level tax subsidies. Federal, things like a the chicken tax which imposes import taxes in categories like small trucks. Easy top of mind ones.

The former doesn’t exist in any meaningful sense and the latter is not a subsidy, it’s a tariff. It doesn’t make American cars cheaper elsewhere, it makes foreign cars more expensive here.

Other nations aren’t at risk of losing their auto industries domestically because of either.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#754

Post by segmondy »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

I read an article yesterday about how a simple nail puncture besides affecting tire sensor light, throws off traction control, abs, and all sorts of computing. what would be a 15 minutes patch and go job turns into an hour job of resetting computers and sensors.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#755

Post by thaawyy33432434 »

tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

hard to compare 2005 ford focus or toyota corolla with 2025 model year. A lot of more feature, cars are safer etc.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#756

Post by trinix912 »

dagw wrote: post #723
trinix912 wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To get to the point that Europe is in where even rich people don't want cars or if they have one it is for weekend trips. You need to do a lot better than this. It's not like that in all of Europe either, the further you go from Western Europe, the worse the public transit gets. The Balkans are probably the worst, you need a car if you live outside a city as rail and even busses are slow, unreliable, or just not an…

the further you go from Western Europe, the worse the public transit gets. It's not really an East-West thing. Downtown Sofia for example has much better public transportation than many 'secondary' and rural towns in Germany and France.

But that's Downtown Sofia, how about the rest of the land? That's what I'm trying to say - yes, it's fine if you live in cities, but outside of that, it's not so easy. Whereas Western Europe invests much more in having efficient transit in smaller and rural towns.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#757

Post by [deleted] »

csomar wrote: post #627
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

[deleted]

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#759

Post by Der_Einzige »

dudeinhawaii wrote: post #751
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading. Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay. Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation). Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

This still doesn't tell the whole story

You need car interest rates to understand actual "car affordability" at any particular time. ZIRP era was far cheaper than right now where most new cars are 6% for highly qualified buyers (800+ credit rating)

Also, cars today last longer, have more features for your dollar, and are significantly safer and in many cases (i.e. toyota small cars like the corolla) can get 50+ mpg without the anemic and underpowered engines of the past.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#760

Post by marcellus23 »

dudeinhawaii wrote: post #751
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading. Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay. Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation). Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

Is the average new-car price the average price that people are buying cars at, or the price that cars are being released at?
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