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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#751

Post by throwaway3060 »

Voultapher wrote: post #602

If Russia were to win the war and a Ukrainian underground would launch "guerrilla attacks" against Russia, they would be lauded as heros. Now here we have a somewhat similar story, of a foreign invader that displaced the local people not too long ago and a remaining native opposition. There is no version of this that will end up with the Palestinians getting a fair outcome. I've calling this a genocide quite early on…

This scenario already played out before in history; some people may believe those groups to have been heroes, but most can recognize that fighting in the name of independence did not make those groups any less guilty of committing atrocities against civilians. At the same time, that doesn't take away today from the people fighting for freedom legitimately. If anything, those groups hurt their cause in the long-run, as they gave Russia ammunition for propaganda for the next 80+ years.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#752

Post by bluehex »

YZF wrote: post #733
tootie wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misreading. The civilian casualties are very much intentional. They are being ordered to fire on unarmed people seeking food. There are verified reports of IDF targeting journalists and EMTs. I am also Jewish American and I am 100% convinced that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. I find it utterly reprehensible that this opinion can ever be considered antisemitic since the actions of the Isra…

What is you definition of "genocide against the Palestinians"? Are you including Palestinians that are Israeli citizens? The West Bank? Those living outside the region? Word choice matters here. Is Israel executing a plan to kill all Gazans? I am 100% convinced Israel is not actually committing a genocide against Palestinians. That claim has no factual support. Do I agree with everything Israel is doing? No. Are ther…

Etymology of the word is irrelevant when it comes to current usage, and current usage and understanding is neatly summarized by Wikipedia in the first sentence of that same article where your quote about the etymology comes from.

"Genocide is violence that targets individuals because of their membership of a group and aims at the destruction of a people."

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#753

Post by thaumasiotes »

maeil wrote: post #248
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

> A country like Japan at least doesn't even pretend to have learnt anything

I was under the impression that they had a lot to say about how WWII taught them the virtues of pacifism?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#754

Post by alfiedotwtf »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #541
Newtonip wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Including a sizeable Jewish minority. There was a Jewish community in Palestine (mostly centered around Jerusalem) but they did not come up with the Zionist project. Actually, many were opposed and some of their descendants still do so to this day. > The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region The (European) architects of the Zionist project literally called it c…

> Ze'ev Jabotinsky literally compared the Zionist project to other colonial projects The Zionist Project is comparable to colonialism. That doesn’t make it settler-colonialism. (And Jabotinsky isn’t the final word on anything other than himself.)

The whole notion of settling outside borders is marketing for annexation but has total support from Western Governments, yet those same governments are absolutely against the annexation of Ukraine.

… fuck I hate politics :(

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#755

Post by throwaway3060 »

leereeves wrote: post #746
edanm wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

Ethnostate is not a slur, it's an accurate description of a country that itself passed the Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People . (A basic law in Israel is roughly like a constitutional amendment in the US.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law%3A_Israel_as_the_Nat...

Ethnostate is an ambiguous word. Does it mean ethnically homogenous? Israel is certainly not that. Does it mean, essentially, a nation-state whose "national group" is an ethnicity? Israel is that - but so is much of Europe and some parts of Asia.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#756

Post by alfiedotwtf »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #620
alkhatib wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things you described are also war crimes. Calling it sophisticated does not change that fact.

> Those things you described are also war crimes No, it’s war. Targeted killing of a military scientist is war. Gunning down civilians trying to get food is a war crime. If we start labelling all war as criminal, the term loses all meaning.

Unless prosecuted and people either go to jail or are executed, war crimes are just a label for anyone in opposition to Western domination.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#757

Post by wfn »

YZF wrote: post #688
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

As another Jewish Israeli I agree this is concerning. I do want you to consider the context here on Hacker News though. You and me have context, we understand the history, we understand at least something about wars and how they are fought. Most people here do not. The problem isn't whether firing on civilians with no reason when they come to get food is wrong or right. We all know it's wrong. The soldiers in Gaza kn…

> Where do we place Israel on that scale

That is, I think, an excellent and pertinent question.

For starters may I suggest applying straightforward quantification on a linear scale and observing the results? See the following two wiki articles / subsections:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_co... (see chart preceding the Gaza war (follow anchor))

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war (Gaza war; see top table (and subsequent charts for more detailed breakdown if interested))

Based on this quantitative data where would you place Israel on that aforementioned scale?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#758

Post by burnt-resistor »

ahartmetz wrote: post #26

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#759

Post by YZF »

bluehex wrote: post #752
YZF wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is you definition of "genocide against the Palestinians"? Are you including Palestinians that are Israeli citizens? The West Bank? Those living outside the region? Word choice matters here. Is Israel executing a plan to kill all Gazans? I am 100% convinced Israel is not actually committing a genocide against Palestinians. That claim has no factual support. Do I agree with everything Israel is doing? No. Are ther…

Etymology of the word is irrelevant when it comes to current usage, and current usage and understanding is neatly summarized by Wikipedia in the first sentence of that same article where your quote about the etymology comes from. "Genocide is violence that targets individuals because of their membership of a group and aims at the destruction of a people."

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#760

Post by xyst »

the__alchemist wrote: post #218

Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued as as leftist stereotype. This is within context of the behavior described in the article. - I'm a Jew in USA, and served in the military for more than a decade. - I used to get annoyed by the Palestinian protests I'd see in the years before this, and generally sided with Israel, and the operations its military performed in counter-Shia-militia operations etc in the…

> Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued

too late, m8

anybody with unfavorable opinions against Israeli government is a "leftist stereotype"

any unfavorable opinions and facts against Israeli government gets you pinned as a "anti-semite" these days

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