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America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

molsonhart.com

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Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#751

America does need to bring back manufacturing. Not because a manufacturing job that pays $25/hr is somehow better than a service job that pays $25/hr. The US needs to bring back manufacturing for strategic reasons and in strategic areas. And it needs to have the capability to scale up manufacturing in response to emergencies. But also, importantly, the US doesn't need to do this by onshoring all manufacturing. Near s…

The cheapest option would then just be to try to become allies with countries where manufacturing is growing the fastest.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#752
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concur, employee training and retention are at an all-time low. There are no positions available for junior employees, minimal onboarding and mentoring of new employees. Organizations have stopped planning people's careers. Used to be that the employee's career growth was their manager's problem, while the employee could focus on the work. Now the employee must market themselves as often, if not more often, than actu…

Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? It would be foolish for an employee to let someone else handle career growth for them as their interests aren't aligned (or even known). If you want help with career growth then find a mentor , don't rely on your manager. Managers should facilitate training to improve employee productivity and help…

My bestie works in sales and marketing. Events, promotions, audience engagement. Long time experience with national brands, loves helping local businesses (side hustle).

A huge part of her job is recruiting and hiring. Part of her pitch is proactive career development.

Paraphrasing: I want you to join our team. I also understand that this job is just one stop on your journey. While you're here, what can I do to help you get the skills and experience you want for your next job?

Consequently, she has a HUGE network, built over decades. Something comes up and she knows just the right person. She has her pick of new opportunities.

Wouldn't you love to have her as your boss?

I've had precisely 2 bosses in my career that had any impulse for nurturing, mentoring, career development. Whereas I've tried to be that kind of boss, given the limits of our current system.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, manufacturing in America is up. The 2008 crises dealt a blow, but manufacturing has been building-back. I don't think people realize how many high-value items are made in the United States. Let the East Asians make our mass-consumer junk while we focus on the high-value stuff. Just goes to show the administration isn't working with facts and doing the hard-nosed analysis required to drive effective policy.…

> Thing is, manufacturing in America is up. I'm looking at the first chart, "Manufacturing Sector: Real Sectoral Output for All Workers" [1]. It grew until Q2 2000, when it was at 97.2. In Q4 2024 it was at 98.6. And let's not ignore how almost all leading semiconductor manufacturing (which are in and required for nearly everything) has moved to East Asia. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS

I didn't notice it before, but these are not per capita numbers. In 2000, the US population was 281 million, and in 2024 it was 340 million [1]. So per capita, manufacturing went from 97.2 in 2000, to 81.5 in 2024.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#754
post #304

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The weird part for me is this: While the economy was evolving, Production was offshored from US for cost-reasons, but also in part to focus on higher-skill labor in US, delegating the low-skill mass-production to China. Over time, China also developed mid/high level skills, complemented their low-skill production offering with it and now competes in new industries, new tech, etc. So...to compete with China, the count…

Trump et al. really run a motte-and-bailey argument here. They woo reasonable people who agree that critical industries: food, energy, defense-adjacent, metals, etc. - must have substantial capacity on-shore or at least very near. They then flip to what amounts to massive handouts for his rust belt base, basically saying we should make everything here. The obvious answer is this: 1. it doesn't matter if our t-shirts…

> 3. Launch moonshot investments into robotics and automation. Bringing back a big chunk of manufacturing is sustainable; bringing back jobs is not.

Absent sufficient jobs, or some other arrangement for the masses that provides both material comfort and some sense of purpose, you'll never get to the automation because you will likely have a revolution first.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#755
post #674

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> If paying domestic workers more raises the price of domestic goods, and if people are willing to pay that price for whatever reason, you will start to see growth in manufacturing. We ran this experiment for decades. It turns out that Americans are not willing to pay the higher prices, which led to our manufacturing consolidating around higher-value items. This notion that we should move Americans from high-producti…

> We ran this experiment for decades. It turns out that Americans are not willing to pay the higher prices, which led to our manufacturing consolidating around higher-value items. But did we run that experiment while foreign alternatives were nearly or equally expensive? That's the real test, and whether foolish or not that's what they are trying to do with tariffs. > Lower-productivity jobs mean less income for work…

> But did we run that experiment while foreign alternatives were nearly or equally expensive?

Tariffs will have to go a lot higher than 145% for this to be a relevant question. US labor (and now due to tariffs, raw materials) costs are so much higher that frequently even doubling the import price would not make US cost-competitive.

> Are you suggesting former factory workers all became scientists and engineers?

No, I am suggesting that those people currently work in jobs that support higher productivity of the overall labor force, and that higher productivity creates the conditions necessary for increased prosperity for Americans.

Let's take QA for example as something that is often thought of as lower-skilled (but which is not) job that a hypothetical former factory worker could retrain to do. A person could QA a T-shirt or QA the Netflix app. The Netflix QA impacts more flow of money than a T-shirt QA, and so supports higher income for everyone working at Netflix than those working in a T-shirt factory. It is not possible for a person to manually QA enough shirts to have a similar economic impact as QAing the Netflix app.

Or compare the typical factory worker to a profession that is often denigrated in the US: retail. A factory worker making cutlery or light bulbs will generate less money for the economy than the average Costco employee[1].

Or look at a company that moves these goods around, like UPS. $360k revenue per employee @ 21% gross margin.

> Is the result of that a higher median income, or is it a reflection of a higher wealth inequality?

This is the continued choice of the US polity to not use our wealth to improve our common good. We instead choose to allocate it in ways that are markedly different from other rich and developing nations. So a high-productivity state with a higher GDP per capita than the UK is "poor" because our chosen combination of labor laws, tax laws, etc. are designed to produce that outcome. There used to be robust debate about the best way to make our economy less anxiety-inducing for individuals, but that discourse ended and everybody pretty much accepts that this is how it has to be. Nonetheless, we are allowed to choose differently.

1 - Costco produces close to $100k of gross profit per employee. This is multiples of the prevailing wage even in rich countries in Western Europe, much less countries like China.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did America stop being a democracy under FDR? Conflating specific term limits with autocracy/democracy is a bit dramatic. There isn't anything physically stopping America from doing what China is doing. We literally did it first (in modernity)! Albeit for too short a time before the robber barons and foreign interests retook control.

I think what I wrote here covers what you're saying: > Democracies that swing as wildly as the US currently does It's not "robber barons" etc. It's just two very different worldviews existing in one place that cause big swings in policy when the other one is elected.

I'm not talking about Red vs. Blue. US national policy doesn't actually swing that much when Red switches to Blue and so on. Yes, Trump abandoned this or that agreement, but Biden generally didn't reverse.

I believe Lee Kuan Yew said "In China, you can't change the government but you can change the policy. In America you can change the government but you can't change the policy", referring to the postwar neoliberal / Deng era.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#757
post #503
post #288

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Would interesting to know what percentage themselves or their own children wanted to work at a factory. Can tell with a huge degree of confidence for all practical purposes thats 0. Its always easy to expect other people to make sacrifices working these jobs, while imagining you and your kids working office desk jobs.

Is everyone on hacker news so entitled and privileged they cannot even imagine an American citizen wanting to work for a living? I absolutely would work a factory job if it paid 100k+ and meant owning a home someday. Instead I got 100k student loans and make 60k at a desk and I'll never have a life outside of work because I simply can't afford it. I'll be 35 this year after 12 years of working and just starting to ha…

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Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#758
post #656

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> Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? On the contrary, from the 40s to the 70s (possibly well into the 80s) the corporation was heavily invested in your career. Employees were expected to dedicate their lives to the firm, and the firm, in turn, was expected to take care of them. This "free-for-all" employment model is fairly recent.…

Even the creepy business terminology "human capital" implies something that a business actively wants to grow. That is in stark contrast to how most businesses manage their people today.

I find "human capital" better than "human resources", as it has connotations of something valuable to be invested carefully as opposed to something simply to be consumed and discarded.

Of course, in the end it doesn't really matter, it is all Orwellian anyway.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Historical claims - the CCP views Taiwan as a breakaway province and considers unification important. After the Chinese Civil War ended in 1948, the defeated Republic of China (ROC) government fled to Taiwan while the CCP took control of China. 2) Political legitimacy - successful unification would be a nationalist victory for the CCP 3) Strategic importance - key geographic asset. It lies in the first island chai…

1-2 really just do not matter; I can't imagine anyone in the CCP views that as more important than their own internal matters. 3 as I said, they can just negotiate and throw money at the problem; it's cheaper than fighting a war. 4 they can already buy hardware from them and was doing so just fine before US stepped in. DeepSeek seemed to do fine and China may likely surpass Western AI development in the near future 5…

1 and 2 are the biggest reasons by far and matter a lot. Dictators are people too, they are susceptible as anyone to their minds being poisoned by too much nationalism. And even if it wasn't for that they would still view it as a way to get back flagging support from a nationalistic public(even dictators need a minimal amount of support from the population).

They do see Taiwan as an internal matter, that's the problem they don't recognize this sovereignty and don't like or understand Democracy. It's like Russia with Ukraine but they'll also claim Taiwan isn't a country because even most western nations technically don't recognize them. It makes me think we made a mistake not recognizing Taiwan as it's own country back in the 90s when China was less powerful.

Re: America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

#760
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blue collar workers never pushed for globalization because they knew exactly what would happen, they would lose their jobs and they did. The irony now about Chinese goods is that those of us that can afford it avoid them as much as possible. I check every product that I buy on Amazon to make sure they aren’t made in China because they could be sending me poisoned goods.

> Blue collar workers never pushed for globalization Maybe they didn't with their words, but they surely did with their money!

Yep! Those stupid blue collar workers buying cheap shit from Walmart because they couldn't afford to shop anywhere else, it's their fault their jobs were outsourced.

The jobs left first, then the blue collar workers bought stuff from Walmart.

Now you have the middle class who used to deride that cheap shit hooked on it, talking about how they can get next day from Amazon, Temu and Ali.

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