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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#751

Post by matt-p »

me551ah wrote: post #567
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

This is going to have a catastrophic effect on closed source AI startup valuations. Because this means that anyone can copy any LLM. The person who trains the model, spends the most amount of money. Everyone else can create a replica at lower cost

Good.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#752

Post by jhanschoo »

SilverBirch wrote: post #92

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules and move fast. That's what OpenAI used to be. Or you can be the big incumbent who is going to use your enormous resources to crush your opposition. That's Google & Microsoft here. For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you tra…

> For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you trained this model" would be perfectly expected and they can use that strategy because at any given time they have 1,000 lawyers and lobbyists hanging around waiting to do exactly that. But OpenAI can't do that. They don't have Google or Microsoft's legal teams or lobbyists or distribution channels.

I think it's also hilarious that suppose they can do that then they will end up suppressing innovation within the US, and eager groups in China would just innovate without having to worry about this hostile landscape.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#753

Post by sitkack »

floatrock wrote: post #246
daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business. Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolida…

This is why we saw the market correction, because the AI hegemony has been cracked.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#754

Post by mcmcmc »

hintymad wrote: post #732
leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

Just to play devil's advocate, OAI can argue that they spent great effort creating and procuring annotated data. Such datasets are indeed their secret, and now DS gets them for free by distilling OAI's output. Besides, OAI's EULA explicitly forbids users from using the output of their API for model training. I'm not saying that OAI is right, of course. Just to present OAI's point of view.

They aren’t actually getting the dataset though.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#755

Post by matt-p »

827a wrote: post #465
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

I don't think we should discount it as such, but given there's no evidence for it, yet plenty of evidence that they trained this themselves surely we can't seriously entertain it?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#756

Post by pclmulqdq »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #738
leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

You can't copyright AI generated works. OpenAI are barking up the wrong tree.

They use their terms of service as both a sword and a shield here. It's a little bit ridiculous.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#757

Post by ddingus »

So what?

Seriously. Given how pretty much all this software was trained, who cares?

I, for one, don't and believe the massive amount of knowledge continues to be of value to many users.

And I find the thought of these models knowing some things they shouldn't very intriguing.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#758

Post by esskay »

Hard to really have any sympathy for OpenAI's position when they're actively stealing content, ignoring requests to stop then spending huge amounts to get around sites running ai poisoning scripts, making it clear they'll still take your content regardless of if you consent to it.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#760

Post by dauhak »

golly_ned wrote: post #716
SilverBirch wrote: post #92

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules and move fast. That's what OpenAI used to be. Or you can be the big incumbent who is going to use your enormous resources to crush your opposition. That's Google & Microsoft here. For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you tra…

> they're still a minnow 3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.

They're also still deep in their loss-making phase, the whole "incumbent squashing upstarts" stance is a lot easier to pull off when you're settled and printing money
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