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Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

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Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#751
post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description of what I told you is nothing like what I wrote at all. Also, the guy here is telling you that AVX-512 shines on compute bound workloads, which is effectively what I have been saying. Try going back and rereading everything.

Sorry, that's exactly what you said and the reason why we are having this discussion in the first place. I am guilty of being too patient with trolls such as yourself. If you're not a troll, then you're clueless or detached from reality. You're just spitting a bunch of incoherent nonsense and moving goalposts when lacking an argument.

I am a well known OSS developer with hundreds of commits in OpenZFS and many commits in other projects like Gentoo and the Linux kernel. You keep misreading what I wrote and insist that I said something I did not. The issue is your lack of understanding, not mine.

I said that supporting 2 AVX-512 reads per cycle instead of 1 AVX-512 read per cycle does not actually matter very much for performance. You decided that means I said that AVX-512 does not matter. These are very different things.

If you try to use 2 AVX-512 reads per cycle for some workload (e.g. checksumming, GEMV, memcpy, etcetera), then you are going to be memory bandwidth bound such that the code will run no faster than if it did 1 AVX-512 read per cycle. I have written SIMD accelerated code for CPUs and the CPU being able to issue 2 SIMD reads per cycle would make zero difference for performance in all cases where I would want to use it. The only way 2 AVX-512 reads per cycle would be useful would be if system memory could keep up, but it cannot.

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#752
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that's exactly what you said and the reason why we are having this discussion in the first place. I am guilty of being too patient with trolls such as yourself. If you're not a troll, then you're clueless or detached from reality. You're just spitting a bunch of incoherent nonsense and moving goalposts when lacking an argument.

I am a well known OSS developer with hundreds of commits in OpenZFS and many commits in other projects like Gentoo and the Linux kernel. You keep misreading what I wrote and insist that I said something I did not. The issue is your lack of understanding, not mine. I said that supporting 2 AVX-512 reads per cycle instead of 1 AVX-512 read per cycle does not actually matter very much for performance. You decided that m…

I agree server CPUs are underprovisioned for memBW. Each core's share is 2-4 GB/s, whereas each could easily drive 10 GB/s (Intel) or 20+ (AMD).

I also agree "some" (for example low-arithmetic-intensity) workloads will not benefit from a second L1 read port.

But surely there are other workloads, right? If I want to issue one FMA per cycle, streaming from two arrays, doesn't that require maintaining two loads per cycle?

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#753
post #752
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a well known OSS developer with hundreds of commits in OpenZFS and many commits in other projects like Gentoo and the Linux kernel. You keep misreading what I wrote and insist that I said something I did not. The issue is your lack of understanding, not mine. I said that supporting 2 AVX-512 reads per cycle instead of 1 AVX-512 read per cycle does not actually matter very much for performance. You decided that m…

I agree server CPUs are underprovisioned for memBW. Each core's share is 2-4 GB/s, whereas each could easily drive 10 GB/s (Intel) or 20+ (AMD). I also agree "some" (for example low-arithmetic-intensity) workloads will not benefit from a second L1 read port. But surely there are other workloads, right? If I want to issue one FMA per cycle, streaming from two arrays, doesn't that require maintaining two loads per cycl…

In an ideal situation where your arrays both fit in L1 cache and are in L1 cache, yes. However, in typical real world situations, you will not have them fit in L1 cache and then what will happen after the reads are issued will look like this:

  * Some time passes
  * Load 1 finishes
  * Some time passes
  * Load 2 finishes
  * FMA executes
As we are doing FMA on arrays, this is presumably part of a tight loop. During the first few loop iterations, the CPU core’s memory prefetcher will figure out that you have two linear access patterns and that your code is likely to request the next parts of both arrays. The memory prefetcher will then begin issuing loads before your code does and when the CPU issues a load that has already been issued by the prefetcher, it will begin waiting on the result as if it had issued the load. Internally, the CPU is pipelined, so if it can only issue 1 load per cycle, and there are two loads to be issued, it does not wait for the first load to finish and instead issues the second load on the next cycle. The second load will also begin waiting on a load that was done early by the prefetcher. It does not really matter whether you are issuing the AVX-512 loads in 1 cycle or 2 cycles, because the issue of the loads will occur in the time while we are already waiting for the loads to finish thanks to the prefetcher beginning the loads early.

There is an inherent assumption in this that the loads will finish serially rather than in parallel, and it would seem reasonable to think that the loads will finish in parallel. However, in reality, the loads will finish serially. This is because the hardware is serial. On the 9800X3D, the physical lines connecting the memory to the CPU can only send 128-bits at a time (well, 128-bits that matter for this reasoning; we are ignoring things like transparent ECC that are not relevant for our reasoning). An AVX-512 load needs to wait for 4x 128-bits to be sent over those lines. The result is that even if you issue two AVX-512 reads in a single cycle, one will always finish first and you will still need to wait for the second one.

I realize I did not address L2 cache and L3 cache, but much like system RAM, neither of those will keep up with 2 AVX-512 loads per cycle (or 1 for that matter), so what will happen when things are in L2 or L3 cache will be similar to what happens when loads come from system memory although with less time spent waiting.

It could be that you will end up with the loop finishing a few cycles faster with the 2 AVX-512 read per cycle version (because it could make the memory prefetcher realize the linear access pattern a few cycles faster), but if your loop takes 1 billion cycles to execute, you are not going to notice a savings of a few cycles, which is why I think being able to issue 2 AVX-512 loads instead of 1 in a single cycle does not matter very much.

Does my explanation make sense?

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of the "massive gains" were comparing DLSS and other optimization strategies to standard hardware rendering. > Something tells me Nvidia made next to no gains for this generation. Sounds to me like they made "massive gains". In the end, what matters to gamers is 1. Do my games look good? 2. Do my games run well? If I can go from 45 FPS to 120 FPS and the quality is still there, I don't care if it's because of f…

Any frame gen gains don’t improve latency so the usefulness is reduced

Nvidia reflex 2 is supposed to fix that. It will recenter the frame based on mouse movements.

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#756
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jensen Huang said during his keynote that you get 3 AI generated frames when rendering a native frame.

This doesn't imply "extrapolation" instead of interpolation.

That does imply extrapolation since interpolation requires 2 frames and they are only using 1.

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#757
post #140
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The xx90 cards are really Titan cards. The 3090 was the successor to the Titan RTX, while the 3080 Ti was the successor to the 2080 Ti, which succeeded the 1080 Ti. This succession continued into the 40 series and now the 50 series. If you consider the 2080 Ti to be the "value high end card" of its day, then it would follow that the 5080 is the value high end card today, not the 5090.

In all those historical cases the second tier card was a cut down version of the top tier one. Now the 4080 and 5080 are a different chip and there's a gulf of a performance gap between them and the top tier. That's the issue I am highlighting, the 5080 is half a 5090, in the past a 3080 was only 10% off a 3090 performance wise.

It was not actually. The last time this was the case was Maxwell:

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gm200.g772

Beginning with Pascal, Nvidia’s top GPU was not available in consumer graphics cards:

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gp100.g792

Turing was a bit weird since instead of having a TU100, they instead had Volta’s GV100:

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-tu102.g813

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gv100.g809

Then there is Ampere’s GA100 that never was used in a consumer graphics card:

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ga100.g931

Ada was again weird as instead of a AD100, it had the GH100:

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ad102.g1005

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gh100.g1011

Now with Blackwell the GB100 is the high end one that is not going into consumer cards. The 5090 gets GB202 and the 5080 gets GB203.

Rather than the 40 series and 50 series putting the #2 GPU die into the #2 consumer card, they are putting the #3 GPU die into the #2 consumer card.

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel hate making money even more than AMD.

Starting around 2000, Intel tried to make money via attempts at everything but making a better product (pushing RAMBUS RAM, itanium, cripling low-end chips more than they needed to be, focusing more on keeping chip manufacturing in-house thereby losing out on economy of scale). The result was engineers were (not always, but too often) nowhere near the forefront of technology. Now AMD, NVIDIA, ARM are all chipping awa…

[deleted]

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, there are no 4K displays with 200+ DPI on the market. There are 4k 24" monitors (almost 200 DPI) and 4k 18.5" portable monitors (more than 200 DPI) you can buy nowadays

4k 24" monitors used to exist, but they've disappeared from the market and now the choices are either 27+" or laptop panels.

Why did they stop making those? When I went to 4K, I wanted to get a 24” monitor, but there were none.

Re: Nvidia announces next-gen RTX 5090 and RTX 5080 GPUs

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of the "massive gains" were comparing DLSS and other optimization strategies to standard hardware rendering. > Something tells me Nvidia made next to no gains for this generation. Sounds to me like they made "massive gains". In the end, what matters to gamers is 1. Do my games look good? 2. Do my games run well? If I can go from 45 FPS to 120 FPS and the quality is still there, I don't care if it's because of f…

If you're doing frame generation you're getting input lag. Frame generation from low framerates is pretty far from ideal.

Nvidia claims to have fixed this with Nvidia reflex 2. It will reposition the frame according to mouse movements.
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