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I automated my job application process

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Re: I automated my job application process

#751

Post by ghaff »

no_wizard wrote: post #750
wsintra2022 wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s the gold standard for finding engineering (software) and work. Get out into the world by attending meet-ups about technology and start contributing to real world open source projects or volunteer at the many projects looking for devs. It may not be a job overnight but it will keep you busy enough to not stagnate and you will also open yourself to bumping into someone who may be looking for someone at o…

Both this and the OP you responded to are good advice if you aren’t in a situation where you needed a job yesterday. What about situations where you were laid off and can’t really wait months to get a new one?

The advice is probably to promptly ping obvious connections (which is what I did when I was laid off and it worked out). Failing that, depending on financial situation, either do unpaid work or become a barista.

Re: I automated my job application process

#752

Post by sokoloff »

clippy99 wrote: post #718
teeray wrote: post #57

It’s astounding that we, as an industry, are so averse to licensing developers. It solves the resume spam problem and the repetitive LeetCode round(s) that every company now wants. We also don’t have to settle for the licensing process other industries have—ours can be more inclusive of alternative development backgrounds, while still providing a meaningful quality filter.

What about honoring our multi-year college degrees. Isn't that licensing enough?

What percentage of what you do as a software engineer has direct linkage to computer science?

My guess for most of us is "not very much at all", several of the best people I've worked with as programmers did not have a CS degree, and I've interviewed people with CS degrees who could not write a function to sum an array of integers in any language of their choosing, meaning "honoring their degree" would have been an unwise choice.

Re: I automated my job application process

#753

Post by tombert »

resonious wrote: post #661
Aurornis wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried giving honest and actionable interview feedback at first. A scary number of candidates did not take rejection well and tried to use my feedback against me. I had people trying to argue that my feedback was wrong, someone stalking me across social media and trying to argue everything there, and eventually someone who threatened to use my feedback as the basis for a discrimination lawsuit. So now we’re back to…

I've also seen the "your feedback is wrong" pushback. Like... do they expect me to say "oh woops my bad. actually here's an offer"?

I agree with what you're saying, but it can be immensely frustrating when you're rejected for a job when the interviewer themselves is actually wrong, which has happened a few times. I've been given technical questions in interviews, and I answer the questions correctly (I always double-check when I get home), and the interviewer pretty much tells me that I'm wrong.

For example, in an interview once I got the typical "design Twitter" whiteboarding question, and it's going fine, until the topic of databases and storage comes up.

I ask "do we want consistency or availability here?"

The interviewer says that he wants both. To which I say "umm, ok, but I thought you said you wanted this to be distributed?", and he said yeah that's what he wants.

So I have to push back and say "well I mean, we all want that, but I'm pretty sure you can't have stuff be distributed or partitionable while also having availability and consistent."

We go back and forth for about another minute (or course eating away at my interview time), until I eventually pull out my phone and pull up the Wikipedia article for CAP theorem, to which the interviewer said that this is "different" somehow. I said "it's actually not different, but lets just use assume that there exists some kind of database X that gives us all these perks".

Now, in fairness to this particular company, they actually did move forward and gave me a (crappy) offer, so credit there, but I've had other interviews that went similarly and I'm declined. I've never done it, but I've sort of wanted to go onto LinkedIn and try and explain that their interview questions either need to change or they need to become better informed about the concepts that they're interviewing for. Not to change anything, not to convince anyone to suddenly give me an offer, but simply to prove my point.

Re: I automated my job application process

#754

Post by tugu77 »

brookst wrote: post #722
tugu77 wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't claim anything about identifying writing. That's a strawman. I'm talking about humans talking to each other. Even if it's in a zoom call. Any interview process that doesn't include that is broken, and that's my claim. Echo chamber or not.

Apologies for misunderstanding you, then. Agreed that human to human is critical, especially for identifying culture fit (not homogeneity of course, just interaction styles like openness, etc). I do think people cheat video interviews with LLM help, but in-person should always be required anyway, even if it’s via proxy (“meet with a colleague from our Madrid office”).

How widespread is LLM cheating during video interviews these days? Honest question.. How do people even do it? Let an LLM app listen in and suggest avenues of discussion and lists a bunch of facts on the side to spice things up?

Even if that's the case, isn't it just a matter of conversing in a way that the LLM can't easily follow?

Re: I automated my job application process

#755

Post by tombert »

zahlman wrote: post #539
salomon812 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God, I wish I could respond to denied applicants like a human, but the threat of legal action prevents me from giving good feedback. I know it sucks, but I'm not sure what to do about this, and I'm already so burnt out from the hiring process as it is, it's hard to work up the strength to do this fight as well. Not to mentioned I spend forever doing it, there's so many and I wouldn't want to do it halfway...

>I wish I could respond to denied applicants like a human, but the threat of legal action ... Legal action on what basis, exactly?

Not the person you're responding to, but if you give any kind of specific feedback, then you're effectively saying "Reason X is why I didn't hire you".

Dumb example, say you didn't hire someone because they wore a Marilyn Manson Antichrist Superstar shirt to an interview and you think that's not appropriate attire for an interview, and suppose you put that into your feedback for the rejection letter.

Now the candidate has a specific "I was rejected for this shirt". They might come back and say "Actually I'm a satanist and this shirt is part of my religion, so I'm going to sue you for religious discrimination". Suddenly you have a lawsuit on your hands, simply because you thought they were dressing unprofessionally.

Obviously this is a hyperbolic example and I doubt that there are a ton of Marilyn Manson fans trying this, but it's just to show my point: It's much safer to simply leave it vague with something generic like "while we were impressed with your qualifications, we've decided to pursue other candidates" email. They can maintain plausible deniability about the reasons they rejected you, and you don't really have fodder to sue them over that.

That said, I absolutely hate how normalized ghosting is in the job world. A candidate isn't entitled to a job, but I do think they're entitled to a response, even if it's just a blanket form rejection.

Re: I automated my job application process

#756

Post by prmoustache »

idiotsecant wrote: post #721
prmoustache wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then move abroad and get your dream job there?

Huh? Is this a 'love it or leave it' comment? I genuinely don't understand what you're meaning to say here.

What I mean is unless your ideal is autarky or USSR under Joseph Stalin, it is hypocritical or ingenuous to expect having a market where you can sell goods and services worldwide but not allowing workers applying and getting jobs worldwide for same companies. That is called free market.

So if you happen to think you are missing jobs because they are given to people living in another country, you also have the choice to play by the same rules, relocate there and apply for the same job. Or ask for a lower salary where you already are to be competitive. This is fair competition.

Re: I automated my job application process

#757

Post by ok123456 »

hb-robo wrote: post #548
ok123456 wrote: post #475

With all the automated scamming on both sides, maybe showing up to the place dressed well to drop off a resume isn't an antiquated idea after all.

I tried this during peak Silicon Valley days. I remember two things: 1. I got laughed at for wearing a suit by t-shirt devs 2. Around 40% of the places did not allow people to walk in the door at all. I would be pleased with this kind of "analog" solution to this noise though, even as someone who missed the previous in-person paradigm entirely.

Hiring is so broken now that it might be worth trying.

Re: I automated my job application process

#758

Post by clippy99 »

sokoloff wrote: post #752
clippy99 wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about honoring our multi-year college degrees. Isn't that licensing enough?

What percentage of what you do as a software engineer has direct linkage to computer science? My guess for most of us is "not very much at all", several of the best people I've worked with as programmers did not have a CS degree, and I've interviewed people with CS degrees who could not write a function to sum an array of integers in any language of their choosing, meaning "honoring their degree" would have been an u…

What does solving random puzzles from Leetcode have to do with day-to-day engineering work? IMHO, the emphasis should be on previous experience, CS domain knowledge and systems architecture / design. Maybe degrees need to be fixed to convey more useful knowledge...

Re: I automated my job application process

#759

Post by no_wizard »

ghaff wrote: post #751
no_wizard wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both this and the OP you responded to are good advice if you aren’t in a situation where you needed a job yesterday. What about situations where you were laid off and can’t really wait months to get a new one?

The advice is probably to promptly ping obvious connections (which is what I did when I was laid off and it worked out). Failing that, depending on financial situation, either do unpaid work or become a barista.

That’s grim, to say the least.

I also think it’s more proof that tech hiring is broken. When good candidates can’t reasonably get in front of hiring managers without an “in” that means they’re missing out on a lot of really good candidates.

Think that’s the part that bothers me about tech hiring right now. You can’t even really get away messaging a recruiter at the company to start a conversation, I’ve heard from friends that recruiters simply don’t respond in most cases and I’ve heard from a few recruiters I know that they won’t consider it anymore because it became swamped with spam

Re: I automated my job application process

#760

Post by ponector »

runako wrote: post #434
bovermyer wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this approach. In this field, unless you're hiring a junior engineer, you can have a reasonable expectation that a potential candidate will fly out for an interview even if it's a 100% remote job. If they refuse, well, there's a chance it's just because they can't afford to. The chance is far greater, though, that you dodged a bullet.

> it's just because they can't afford to Wait, is this another norm that corporate America broke in the last couple of decades? Do people now expect to pay to fly to interviews? When did this happen?

I have a better idea: pay to get through every step of the recruiting process, with steep increase for each stage. Who paid the most - get the job!
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