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Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

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Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#751

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

Who decides what cases are heard in this scheme?

> Who decides what cases are heard in this scheme?

Good question. Perhaps a separate bench chosen once per session? Have the other circuits vote on it?

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#752

> The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immu…

Since last week, bribery is legal anyway. https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-06-26/suprem...

That article is bad. It ignores the ruling specifically pointing out that 18 USC 201 among other laws does cover 'gratuities' as well as bribes, and it misleadingly claims that "[t]he Supreme Court on Wednesday struck down part of a federal anticorruption law" when referring to 18 USC 666 (Federal Program Bribery, AKA "The Beast") which is just not true. You can see it's not true in the holding:

> Held: Section 666 proscribes bribes to state and local officials but does not make it a crime for those officials to accept gratuities for their past acts.

Nowhere in there do they declare any part of 18 USC 666 unconstutional, which is what one usually takes "struck down" to mean.

The LA Times is at least correct in stating that the ruling clarifies bribes come before the act and gratuities come after, with different legal effect, but they seem to leave out any discussion of this bit inexplicably:

> For example, Congress has established comprehensive prohibitions on both bribes and gratuities to federal officials. If a federal official accepts a bribe for an official act, federal bribery law provides for a 15-year maximum prison sentence. See 18 U. S. C. §201(b). By contrast, if a federal official accepts a prohibited gratuity, federal gratuities law sets a 2-year maximum prison sentence. See §201(c).

Point being, no, gratuities aren't really legal either, they're just punished under different statutes. David G. Savage could've just used this line from the ruling as a much more accurate summary:

> Although a gratuity or reward offered and accepted by a state or local official after the official act may be unethical or illegal under other federal, state, or local laws, the gratuity does not violate §666.

And why did they do this? Because technically giving an apple to your teacher would be Federal Program Bribery otherwise:

> The Government’s interpretation seems all the more unbelievable because §666 applies to the gift-givers as well as the state and local officials accepting the gifts. Specifically, §666(a)(2) makes it a crime punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment for someone to “corruptly” offer or give “anything of value” to state and local officials “with intent to influence or reward.” So under the Government’s approach, families, students, constituents, and other members of the public would be forced to guess whether they could even offer (much less actually give) thank-you gift cards, steak dinners, or Fever tickets to their garbage collectors, professors, or school board members, for example.

But the "bribery is legal now" take you seemingly got from here is incorrect under any interpretation of the word "bribery." Using SCOTUS' version of the word, bribes are still punished by 18 USC 666, and gratuities are punished by 18 USC 201 (as well as other laws for both categories).

But don't take my word for it, you can read the ruling directly: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-108_8n5a.pdf

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#753
post #638
post #65

> Could Obama be prosecuted for ordering drone strikes that unintentionally killed two Americans? It seems like that world would hamstring the president far too much. The President shouldn't have the legal authority to conduct any drone strikes without a declaration of war from Congress. We've been ignoring the Constitution for a very long time.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40848146 .

> We detached this subthread

What does that mean? I'm not familiar with detached subthreads.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#754

Does anyone know where I can find a nuanced view on this issue?

I would certainly read the opinions directly. You probably won't find a rational nuanced view from any forum or news outlet today.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24785411-trump-v-uni...

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#755
post #753
post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40848146 .

> We detached this subthread What does that mean? I'm not familiar with detached subthreads.

At the point where the thread was "detached", it is as if someone started a new top-level thread.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#756

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

Why do you keep using the word “corruption?” This is an incredibly milquetoast opinion that says presidents retain immunity for some official acts while in office. Because that’s obviously true. When Trump wins again, he can’t prosecute Biden for deaths caused by Biden’s border policies. Because obviously. It’s shameful that it wasn’t 9-0.

> Why do you keep using the word “corruption?”

I used it once. Because that’s why ancient democracies used selection by lot. My criticism isn’t of this ruling per se, but of the institution, which has swung from a stabilising branch of government to a constant source of chaos.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#757

> (3) Presidents cannot be indicted based on conduct for which they are immune from prosecution. On remand, the District Court must carefully analyze the indictment’s remaining allegations to determine whether they too involve conduct for which a President must be immune from prosecution. And the parties and the District Court must ensure that sufficient allegations support the indictment’s charges without such condu…

I think it would easily succeed if there was actually a real actual reason to use it and not just a political stunt in the lower house.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#758

> (3) Presidents cannot be indicted based on conduct for which they are immune from prosecution. On remand, the District Court must carefully analyze the indictment’s remaining allegations to determine whether they too involve conduct for which a President must be immune from prosecution. And the parties and the District Court must ensure that sufficient allegations support the indictment’s charges without such condu…

The phrase “probing such conduct” refers back to the “conduct for which a president must be immune from prosecution.” So what it’s saying is that you can’t use tapes relating to protected official acts.

So Nixon tapes discussing his campaign probably would be admissible.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

This wasn't even a problem before the last 4 years, and the only times it were - was when the suspecting president agreed they broke the law and stepped down, or got impeached. We have monarchy after monarchy to show that sovereign immunity builds toxic ontological relationships between participants of a political system, and often invites tyranny. Your suspicions, for 238 years straight, have been amiss.

This hasn't been a problem for 250 years, and it's still not a problem anyone has.

This ruling serves one specific purpose: to protect one single person from the consequences of their crimes.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#760

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

This is the best reform idea I’ve heard. Has it been mentioned elsewhere? There is a reference in the Constitution in the impeachment clause to the “Chief Justice” - which maybe implies justices with some sort of tenure, but I suppose that could be filled randomly as well, much like a jury foreman.

> Has it been mentioned elsewhere?

Not that I can find. (It’s already been flagged off the thread, granted.)

> a reference in the Constitution in the impeachment clause to the “Chief Justice”

Ministerial. The most-senior jurist on the appellate court.

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