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In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

nytimes.com

751–760 of 783 posts

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I think i just realized how to fix the analogy! The issue is with how many books are checked out a time. If the line is absurdly long, at some point you will make fewer trips to the library to avoid paying the cost of waiting in line. You would check out more books so you would go less frequently. You would be trading storage space at home in exchange for time (not having to wait in line). If the line were infini…

I think that's a fair extension of the analogy, from which I would make two observations: First is that with frictionless checkout the library's efficiency is maximized (books are only checked out when being read and people's time isn't spent unproductively). Second is that there is a limit to the demand of the library. A book will be finished before checking out a new one and a person can only read so many books a d…

I really appreciate the dialog! I find your observations interesting.

Though, I do think you might be overemphasizing the number of checkout lanes.

To torture the analogy, let's consider the variables at play:

- how often a person goes to the library

- how many books they check out at a time

- how long they wait to checkout (we can potentially include travel time with this number, and this number is a function of the number of checkout lines)

- how many books can a person use at a given time (can a person read 3 books at a time?)

- how fast a person consumes books

- what is the max number of books that can be transported

- what is the max number of books that can be stored

The variables of "how many times do you go to the library" and "how many books do you get each time", and the cost to do so - "the time to check out", I think are the 3 really interesting variables to demonstrate induced & latent demand. The others are a factor, but we can hold them constant in order to demonstrate the relationship of the other three.

Diving in now - latent demand are people who would rather not read at all rather than spend more time than X waiting to check out. If the time to check out decreases, some people will start making the trip - this is latent demand.

As time to check-out decreases further, some people will start making multiple trips instead of just one - this is induced demand. The people making multiple trips are still checking out the same number of books overall - illustrating there is demand for high frequency and not just an absolute number of books. If all you wanted was 'X' many books, why take more than one trip to get them? The frequency provides flexibility and relieves other costs (carry capacity cost & storage cost).

For example, an expedition to antarctica would be very willing to pay a high cost to have a high carry capacity in order to transport a lot of food (they'll buy a literal boat to carry it) and another high cost to store it (storage space is not free). The expedition is willing to pay these costs because the cost to get more food is so high.

One can also ponder, why not get a lifetime supply of books from a library (ignoring late fees)? To one extent, fitting that many books in your arms and then getting them to your home, and then storing them are costs. Why do that when you could make another trip a week later?

Though, let's say for some reason you knew this was your last ever trip to a library. In this case, you would be highly incentivized to invest in higher carry capacity (eg: rent a truck) and to also invest in storage for the books. (Or, the person would be very incentivized to find alternatives). The really interesting part of induced demand IMO is that typically for existing road resources, we are pretty well into the state where many people would prefer to make more trips than they do today. So when we think about the inverse, as travel costs go down, the incentives to carry more and store more go down - which results in more trips being made. As more trips are made by more people, congestion increases, which creates a balancing effect and a steady state of traffic congestion. Naturally, other factors can break the steady state, the fact there is this counter-balancing force is the (IMO) interesting part of induced demand.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live and what is your background that you think the only way a man might harass a woman is if he is drunk?

That is true everywhere, drunk or affected men are overwhelmingly more likely to harass women than sober men are. Subways here in Europe are full of pretty women, they don't go out of their way to take a car any more than men are, when I count gender on subways there are usually more women than men. When was the last time you saw women avoid grocery stores because they are afraid of getting harassed? Well used public…

Grocery stores are different because bums aren’t allowed to sit around there waiting for a woman to come by for them to harass. If they were, I’m confident many would object.

It’s clear that you don’t have much concern for the harassment experienced by those woman columnists you read, so I don’t think there much more I can say here. I imagine if you were to have any direct experience at all with the problem, your position would be different.

That all said: what’s your upside? What do you gain which you consider to be worth these women whom you do not know sacrificing their safety?

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#753
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vision for what society should be is absolutely not consistent across political and religious spectrums. People vote completely the opposite on things like nuclear energy, wind energy, defense spending, etc all while thinking they are bettering society. Getting everyone consistent on those requires full on propaganda and forced “re-education” whenever people critically examine things.

no, it requires even more critical examination. people need to learn more about the issues involved, and try to understand the needs and fears of others, and to work out a solution that everybody can live with. a consistent vision is that everyone has a right to live their live according to their own ideas, as long as that doesn't affect others. but this vision requires an understanding that we all are contributing w…

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions.

Look at the abortion debate. One side is about the rights of the woman and the other side is about the rights of the fetus. When people see the fetus as a baby, it suddenly becomes murder. There isn’t much nuance there for a compromise.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, this is not a democratic process. People are not voting on these things. A vocal minority with the time and ability to involve themselves in the process ruin things for everyone. Have you actually talked to American voters? No, mass transit isn't directly on the ballot, but in most places, it's not a popular thing. Americans, by and large, like their cars, and really don't like public transit. The more liberal o…

You're mistaking me arguing normative vs. positive. Those voters support those things because they are not forced to bear the costs.

That's how it is with everything. Running a government involves taxing, and directing funds from one place to another; something is always going to be subsidized at the expense of something else (or debt). America's voters prefer to subsidize roads and highways for their personal cars.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about a real sailboat, or one of those tiny things that boy scouts use in small lakes that one person can easily pick up and carry?

You can buy 14' fly J sailboats with trailer for $500 once in a while, or all the time for $1000. Obviously it's not some keeled ocean going vessel you keep at the marina. But let's use your version.. a tiny boy scout dingy you can lift by yourself and put in the water. Should it cost $40 to put that in the water?

No, I agree: a boy scout dingy should not cost $40 to put in the water. A more serious boat, however, I can understand needing higher fees to pay for whatever services are used there.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#756
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it requires even more critical examination. people need to learn more about the issues involved, and try to understand the needs and fears of others, and to work out a solution that everybody can live with. a consistent vision is that everyone has a right to live their live according to their own ideas, as long as that doesn't affect others. but this vision requires an understanding that we all are contributing w…

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions. Look at the abortion debate. One side is about the rights of the woman and the other side is about the rights of the fetus. When people see the fetus as a baby, it suddenly becomes murder. There isn’t much nuance there for a compromise.

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions.

what are current religions for you? i do not want to promote a particular religion on this site, but there are options out there that you may not yet have considered.

i also believe that while peoples behavior reflects their religion, the religions do not control or limit anyones ability to examine things critically. if you are in a religious community that does that, i'd urge you to get out as soon as possible.

Look at the abortion debate

that kind of feels like moving the goalpost. just because there is one topic where a compromise is difficult, if not impossible, doesn't mean the whole idea of finding a solution that works for everyone is not possible.

i am not american, so i am observing the debate as it happens there only from the sidelines. one of the primary criticisms i see against the anti abortion crowd is that they don't consider helping parents with resources they need to raise the baby. where i come from this is mostly a solved problem, because parents, including single mothers, receive plenty of support to raise children.

but more importantly i have a problem with the major religions being obsessed with punishing people for breaking god's laws. as humans we need to concern ourselves with those crimes that actually cause problems in our society, and leave the punishment of breaking god's laws to god.

the compromise is to recognize the needs of the mother as well as that of the unborn child.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I lived in Denver this GenXer gladly transitioned to light rail as it freed up an hour a day that I would have spent concentrating on driving on more relaxing things like reading. I miss it.

Respectfully, you should be arguing for more density so you don't even have to travel by rail that much. But any density is opposed strangely by the anti-car crowd due to (e.g., see SF local politics). 1. "It will ruin the character of our precious million year old city" 2. "Building more housing will magically cause existing people to move out the city" 3. "Developers will get rich. Can't ever let that happen. They…

I’m in favor of both.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#758
post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions. Look at the abortion debate. One side is about the rights of the woman and the other side is about the rights of the fetus. When people see the fetus as a baby, it suddenly becomes murder. There isn’t much nuance there for a compromise.

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions. what are current religions for you? i do not want to promote a particular religion on this site, but there are options out there that you may not yet have considered. i also believe that while peoples behavior reflects their religion, the religions do not control or limit anyones ability to examine things critically. if you are…

>as humans we need to concern ourselves with those crimes that actually cause problems in our society, and leave the punishment of breaking god's laws to god.

Religious leaders mostly disagree with you, and in religious societies, their beliefs are reflected in public policy.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#759
post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re describing absolutely does not exist if you have any of the current religions. what are current religions for you? i do not want to promote a particular religion on this site, but there are options out there that you may not yet have considered. i also believe that while peoples behavior reflects their religion, the religions do not control or limit anyones ability to examine things critically. if you are…

>as humans we need to concern ourselves with those crimes that actually cause problems in our society, and leave the punishment of breaking god's laws to god. Religious leaders mostly disagree with you, and in religious societies, their beliefs are reflected in public policy.

well that is something we need to fix then, isn't it?

for starters, better education will also affect future religious leaders and make them better leaders. but the religions themselves also need critical examination. examples for a better model for religions exist. we need to look at them and adopt some of their ideas.

this discussion shows how the process works. we identify a problem, look for potential solutions, and in the process we find other problems that get in the way, so we work on those problems, until we find issues we can actually fix. and once fixed earlier found issues can be fixed as well, and so on. every step along the way we are making the world a little bit better than before.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how this is a problem unless people are saying you need to stop people from moving in because they want to store their private property on public land for free. Which is silly of course.

I have little idea what you are referring to. During snow removal the streets need to be clear.

I'm saying you have no more right to store your car on the street than I have to store a hot tub on the street.
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