Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

751–760 of 854 posts

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#751

Post by bmitc »

WalterBright wrote: post #734
bmitc wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that really has anything to do with the discussion and is completely melodramatic, as someone else mentioned. However, we have indeed ended up in a hell-hole. Again, as someone else mentioned, the U.S. in the early 20th century rose up against the capitalist thinking and companies coming out of the industrial revolution and implemented socialist policies, progressive tax structures, and aggressive anti-trust…

> By many accounts, the U.S. is a hell-hole on the whole. Many people are unhappy when they discover that a middle class lifestyle requires work. In Seattle, the government decided that poor people are entitled to free air conditioners. A hellhole? LOL. It's almost June and I still turn the heat on.

> Many people are unhappy when they discover that a middle class lifestyle requires work.

I'm just going to stop responding, but I have to call this out. This statement shows a complete disregard and a total lack of empathy for those in the lower middle class and below in the United States. You need to take a step back and understand just how hard people have it in this country.

For example, read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4856058/

From the article:

> In contrast, there is tremendous inequality within the US, with lower socioeconomic status groups experiencing much higher postneonatal mortality rates.

They even go on to eventually claim that the U.S. actually has an advantage during the neonatal period, which is the first four weeks of life, but has abysmal mortality pre-birth and postneonatal compared to peer countries. The reason, one could surmise, is that neonatal is when people actually see doctors. For lower socioeconomic status, the first time they might be seeing an OBGYN is when they go to the emergency room for birth due to lack of insurance, income, education, and other socioeconomic factors.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#752

Post by bmitc »

CPLX wrote: post #749
WalterBright wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The step-up basis happens when you die. But then you get hit with a 40% federal estate tax and a 20% Washington estate tax on that stepped up basis. Since you're not young, if you'd invested a modest sum in AMZN in the 1990s you'd be a millionaire several times over today. Same for MSFT. And Apple. How does other people having more than you take away from you?

1. As I’m sure you well know the estate tax exemption is measured in 8 figures at this point, so no, you don’t “pay 40%” to the federal government. And that’s leaving aside the fact that the dead person can make billions in capital gains, spend it wildly (via loans) and never pay a fucking dime of taxes on it at all. Nobody ever does, that’s the basis issue. It’s a fucking travesty that it’s the current law. 2. I’m r…

Thanks for being one of the good ones and for the discussion support.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#753

Post by WalterBright »

bmitc wrote: post #751
WalterBright wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By many accounts, the U.S. is a hell-hole on the whole. Many people are unhappy when they discover that a middle class lifestyle requires work. In Seattle, the government decided that poor people are entitled to free air conditioners. A hellhole? LOL. It's almost June and I still turn the heat on.

> Many people are unhappy when they discover that a middle class lifestyle requires work. I'm just going to stop responding, but I have to call this out. This statement shows a complete disregard and a total lack of empathy for those in the lower middle class and below in the United States. You need to take a step back and understand just how hard people have it in this country. For example, read this: https://www.nc…

I grew up in a lower middle class family. Here's the formula for middle class and higher success in America:

1. stay in school

2. pay attention in school, learn the material

3. don't do drugs

4. don't do crimes

5. go to college (loans are readily available)

6. pick a major that pays well

It's not rocket science.

Your cite says that the differences in infant mortality shrink considerably when taking into account differential criteria for infant mortality. What the study does not address is drug abuse by the mother. The paper assumes differences are due to differential health care, rather than different lifestyle choices. Lifestyle that affects infant mortality include:

1. drug abuse

2. smoking

3. obesity

4. diet

5. alcohol use

6. absence of fathers (i.e. lack of stable family)

7. age of mother

These are all significant factors, and ignoring them and blaming the health care system is not good enough.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#754

Post by WalterBright »

bmitc wrote: post #750
WalterBright wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is run by the government in the US, as is healthcare. It's ironic that you blame capitalism for that. Infant mortality rate is indeed higher than the US. I dug into it a few years back. It seems that the definition of infant mortality is different among different nations. The US has the most expansive view of it - more specifically, we try to save preemies more aggressively than any other nation, and the fa…

> Education is run by the government in the US, as is healthcare. It's ironic that you blame capitalism for that. No it's not ironic, and it's also not completely correct. There's no point in having a conversation with lack of good faith statements like this. For starters, education is underfunded, and it's leached on to by corporations. Big surprise it doesn't do well. There's also lack of social support structures…

> education is underfunded

This comes up in the Seattle Times nearly every day, and in the reader responses it's invariably pointed out that the funding per student has doubled in the last 15 years or so, even discounted for inflation.

> healthcare

So, Medicare and Medicaid do not exist? Obamacare isn't funded by the government for poor people? Heavy government regulation doesn't cover nearly every aspect of health care?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." -- Karl Marx

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#755

Post by WalterBright »

CPLX wrote: post #749
WalterBright wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The step-up basis happens when you die. But then you get hit with a 40% federal estate tax and a 20% Washington estate tax on that stepped up basis. Since you're not young, if you'd invested a modest sum in AMZN in the 1990s you'd be a millionaire several times over today. Same for MSFT. And Apple. How does other people having more than you take away from you?

1. As I’m sure you well know the estate tax exemption is measured in 8 figures at this point, so no, you don’t “pay 40%” to the federal government. And that’s leaving aside the fact that the dead person can make billions in capital gains, spend it wildly (via loans) and never pay a fucking dime of taxes on it at all. Nobody ever does, that’s the basis issue. It’s a fucking travesty that it’s the current law. 2. I’m r…

It's $13 million for the federal estate tax exemption, and the top rate for Washington's is 20% of the amount over $9 million (it starts being taxed at $1m). It's a meaningless exemption if your net worth is $1b.

> that’s the basis issue

Basis is the amount paid for the stock. The basis boost happens at death. It has nothing to do with margin debt.

Margin debt isn't free. There are limits to how much one can margin. Etrade margin rates are 12.2%, which is pretty high.

If your stocks drop precipitously, which happens every few years, you're subject to a margin call where the broker will sell your stock for you and you get to pay the tax as well. If there isn't enough stock to cover the debt, the broker will come after your other assets to pay it.

Do you also think it is a travesty to mortgage your house and spend it, too? Do you think you should be income taxed every year on the appreciation in value of your house?

> a deeply unfair system

Anyone can open a robinhood.com account on their phone, buy some AMZN for $100, and margin it. The stock trading system in the US is actually very fair and democratic. It's open to all with a phone and a credit card.

> The real question you should be asking is how does other people having less than you within a deeply unfair system not take away from your happiness.

I encourage people with what I've learned about how to invest and improve their lives. A couple have listened and are now doing well, the rest continued making poor choices.

> I’m rich

Then I infer you're not that unhappy about society. The IRS takes donations. If it will make you happy, you can de-rich yourself at any moment by giving it to the IRS. If you look at history, however, confiscating the wealth of the wealthy has never done much of anything to elevate the poor.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#756

Post by unclebucknasty »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #634
unclebucknasty wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to see someone positive about California, given all of the politically-motivated negativity. It's a great state for many reasons. I mentioned non-competes as one of a universe of things that makes this unusual; including its original non-profit status becoming substantially for-profit, and the apparent ease with which MS can now gut the supposedly controlling non-profit and walk away with everything. And, I'm gu…

I am not clear about the intent of your comment. People should be free to sell their labor to whoever they want. And people should be able to buy labor from whoever they want. All businesses at all times are subject to losing their employees to another employer who is willing to pay enough for them.

My original point had very little to do with selling labor/non-competes, but I think you keyed on that part. Maybe re-reading and omitting that will make it clearer.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#757

Post by WalterBright »

archagon wrote: post #716
WalterBright wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all communist societies. For voluntary communes, they usually break up once they discover they cannot feed themselves.

Citation needed.

Sure.

Both Jamestown and Plymouth colonies started out with communal agriculture, and starved. The Plymouth colony switched to private farms after the first year, and then prospered. The Jamestown colony failed. The San Francisco Summer of Love lasted, well, one summer, and then collapsed. The Seattle CHAZ lasted 6 weeks. The Woodstock commune lasted 3 days, then left the fields completely covered in trash and poo for others to clean up.

Find a commune that has lasted more than a handful of years. The Israeli kibbutzen don't count because they feed themselves from a government subsidy.

But hey, you don't have to listen to me. Communes in the US are perfectly legal (20,000 of them have been tried). You're free to start one with your friends. Please keep us posted how it goes!

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#758

Post by WalterBright »

stonogo wrote: post #653
nickpp wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "real estate holdings" Real estate is not cash. It's cash spent . > History also shows us that sooner or later, unbounded wealth disparity ends poorly for the wealthy. History also shows us that societies without wealth disparity end up poorly for everyone . As in starving. > You can have big business without robber barons. Excellent. Go ahead and build one, compete and put Scrooge McDuck out of business.

> Real estate is not cash. It's cash spent. No, it's an asset only barely less liquid than cash, generally deliberately shelved in a holding company for the exact purpose of hoarding wealth. You have fallen for the bullshit. > History also shows us that societies without wealth disparity end up poorly for everyone. As in starving. You left out "unbounded." Deliberate misinterpretation or failure to comprehend? We'll…

> it's an asset only barely less liquid than cash

Have you ever tried to sell real estate? I have. It's nothing like the liquidity of cash. Cash I can spend right now. Real estate? It can be 6 months or more. Even borrowing against the equity takes a while. You have to spend time at the bank, get appraisals, get credit checks, and spend an afternoon at the escrow office reading 100 odd pages of contracts. Bleh.

> Unbounded wealth disparity is a symptom of a corruptable system.

A brief study of various societies will show that wealth disparity is hardly a key ingredient for corruption. Corruption in 3rd world countries, for example, is rampant at every income level. When the only way to get ahead is through corruption, you're going to get a heluva lot of it. The USSR ran on corruption at all levels. There are many books on the Soviet economy.

> Unbounded growth doesn't benefit me past meeting my financial goals

Why does that entitle you to decide what the goals should be for everyone else? What if they decide your business is too big, and you should get a haircut? Setting the maximum for wealth being what you have seems a bit convenient?

Elon Musk is the wealthiest man in the world. With his wealth he was able to start SpaceX. Would we be better off without SpaceX? Musk was also the primary investor in Tesla. He bet his entire fortune on it. Your proposal would have prevented that.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#759

Post by int_19h »

torginus wrote: post #493
int_19h wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> societies without wealth disparity end up poorly for everyone. As in starving. If this is meant to be a reference to Soviet-style communism, then all that shows is that centrally planned economies run by dictators end up poorly for everyone. They don't end up without wealth disparity, though. In fact, USSR had the highest wealth disparity at "peak communism" under Stalin, when well-off party bureaucrats and high-ra…

Think about what you wrote, it doesn't make sense even at the first glance. Millions of Americans have a yearly income in excess of $1million, for those people, employing house staff is a trivial expense. And these people aren't even considered 'rich' by the standards of truly rich people. True, the Soviet elite, like any elite ever, had great resources at its finger tips, and high ranking bureaucrats had access to p…

What I wrote means that USSR had its highest wealth disparity under Stalin (i.e. "peak communism" as usually claimed by both tankies and ancaps). Not that it was the highest wealth disparity in human history; that is so obviously not the case, it hasn't even occurred to me that someone might misread it like that.

And I did not downvote your post. Please don't make so many uncharitable assumptions if you genuinely wish a discussion.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#760

Post by benreesman »

WalterBright wrote: post #669
benreesman wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately it’s pg who owes this community locally and humanity globally for inflicting Altman on the world, but as much as I likewise respect pg on 99/100 things, he seems to be digging his heels in on this one, so I’m not holding my breath. I gather anoxia is a bad way to go. Absent that, a few other recognized OG legends like yourself looking into the matter and rendering an opinion might represent the daylight be…

If Altman has achieved success through force, fraud, or theft, then I oppose him. If it's through selfish behavior, or hard-nosed behavior, it's ok with me. Just like there's nothing wrong with a football team who plays hard to win, as long as they stay within the rules. Microsoft eventually defeated me in the C++ business. I don't fault them for that. They are hard-nose players, and I knew what the game was when I g…

The accusation of this TFA and many others (at an accelerating rate) is that all of theft, fraud, and force or at least the threat of some kind of force is precisely how the present situation emerged. He or entities he utterly controls are the defendants in multiple lawsuits and an SEC investigation around allegations of more or less that entire basket of levers.

As a lay observer and a figure of zero public note, I’m not held to the standard a juror is: I can draw a conclusion based on an overwhelming preponderance of evidence and lobby in my tiny way on the basis of said conclusion.

If I were a juror, I’d be held to the standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt”, guidance typically annotated by a judge with specific instructions as to what it means in the context of a specific legal proceeding.

I’m not advocating for some kind of ugly mob justice (I’ve been at the mercy of unruly mobs, I do not recommend it).

I’m advocating that a sufficiently compelling body of evidence both documentary and testimonial exists to remove this person from a position in which they can plausibly manipulate the legal infrastructure itself, and public opinion likewise, and hand the matter over to duly constituted authority.

Personally? I’ll bet the rent that the ocean of evidence will persuade a fair jury, but I’m not a jury, I’m a random guy who knows how scary this technology is in the hands of people like that and is pleading with the world to stop him getting fucking laws passed and shit.

Post reply on HN