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A coder considers the waning days of the craft

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Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#751
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on a team developing a critical public safety system on a tight deadline a few years ago, and i had to translate some wireframes for the admin back-end into CSS. I did a passable job but it wasn’t a perfect match. I was asked to redo it by the team-lead. It had zero business value, but such was the state of our team…being pixel perfect was a source of pride. It was one of the incidents that made me to stop fron…

> I recently asked ChatGPT to produce similar CSS and it did so flawlessly. I use ChatGPT every day for many tasks in my work and find it very helpful, but I simply do not believe this. > The article points this out: middling generalists can now compete with specialists. I'd say it might allow novices to compete with middling generalists, but even that is a stretch. On the contrary, ChatGPT is actually best suited to…

> ChatGPT is actually best suited to use by a specialist who has enough contextual knowledge to construct targeted prompts

This is my take also.

ChatGPT for novices is dangerous, its the equivalent of a calculator. If you don't know your expected output you're just wrong faster.

But if you know what to expect, whats your bounds and how to do it normally anyway, it can make you faster.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#752

I have a simple front-end test that I give to junior devs. Every few months I see if ChatGPT can pass it. It hasn’t. It can’t. It isn’t even close. It answers questions confidently but with subtle inaccuracies. The code that it produces is the same kind of non-sense that you get from recent bootcamp devs who’ve “mastered” the 50 technologies on their eight page résumé. If it’s gotten better, I haven’t noticed. Self-d…

>I have a simple front-end test that I give to junior devs. Every few months I see if ChatGPT can pass it. It hasn’t. It can’t. It isn’t even close.

Small consolation if it can nonetheless get lots of other cases right.

>It answers questions confidently but with subtle inaccuracies.

Small consolation if coding is reduced to "spot and fix inaccuracies in ChatGPT output".

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#754

Do people seriously consider this the waning days of the craft? I don’t understand that. My view is that I am about to enter the quantum productivity period of coding. I am incredibly excited about AI assistance on my coding tasks, because it improves not only what I’m writing, but also helps me to learn as I go. I have never had a better time writing software than I have in the last year. I’ve been writing software…

Yeah, I found TFA to be very annoying with its mix of nostalgia (despite the author not even being 40 years old ?!?) and silly examples.

1.) Apple’s programming environment being forbidding : no shit, Apple is well known for the hoops developers have to jump through to be allowed into their monopoly, why any self-respecting hacker would ever want to code for iOS (and now even MacOS, Android, Windows) is beyound me. I guess that's partially because they are US-based, where it's still somewhat respectable / not illegal ?

2.) Visual C++ : similar deal, just a few years later the bar for graphical interfaces would be significantly lowered with the likes of Python+Qt, Java, HTML+CGI... and even back then for non-graphical interfaces we had BASIC.

(The design and programming of graphical interfaces is its own distinct profession for a reason, jumbling it in with «coding» as a big indistinct mass just because the same person used to have to do both regardless of their level of proficiency is missing the point.)

3.) > When I got into programming, it was because computers felt like a form of magic. The machine gave you powers but required you to study its arcane secrets—to learn a spell language. This took a particular cast of mind. I felt selected. I devoted myself to tedium, to careful thinking, and to the accumulation of obscure knowledge. Then, one day, it became possible to achieve many of the same ends without the thinking and without the knowledge. Looked at in a certain light, this can make quite a lot of one’s working life seem like a waste of time.

It's not the LLMs that got rid of this, it's already Web search engines, years ago ! (It also takes skill to «prompt engineer» a search engine to find you a good answer. Not to mention that one of the still ongoing - but for how long ? - issues, is the enshittification of them through Google's monopoly. It should get better once they are out of the picture.)

4.) Proposition 5 of Euclid’s Elements I

This seems to be another good example of how a lot of these issues stem from the lack of good teaching / documentation. Consider how much clearer it would be if merely you split it into two propositions !

It also seems to be a good example of an arbitrary goal of hardly any practical significance ? (FizzBuzz, that a good fraction of CS college students are unable to grok, would be a much better example ?) But perhaps I am wrong, and a mathematician / mathematics teacher can explain ?

I have way better examples : I am still pissed that we keep teaching students pi instead of tau and pseudovectors (papering over the difference with vectors !!) instead of geometric algebra. Imagine we still had to do math with words like before the modern era (sqrt() also comes to mind), instead of mathematical notation !

5.) There's also a whole big chunk about coders being (/ having been) a highly valued profession, and it's the likely loss of that that the article seems to be mostly deploring, but we shouldn't confuse it with the other things.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#755
post #727
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on a team developing a critical public safety system on a tight deadline a few years ago, and i had to translate some wireframes for the admin back-end into CSS. I did a passable job but it wasn’t a perfect match. I was asked to redo it by the team-lead. It had zero business value, but such was the state of our team…being pixel perfect was a source of pride. It was one of the incidents that made me to stop fron…

You may think it did a good job because of your limited CSS ability. I'd be amazed if ChatGPT can create pixel-perfect animations and transitions along with reusable clean CSS code which supports all of the browser requirements at your org. I've seen the similar claims made on Twitter by people with zero programming ability claiming they've used ChatGPT to build an app. Although 99% of the time what they've actually…

It does great at boilerplate, so I think it's safe to say it will disrupt Java.

I've been using tabnine for years now, and I use chatGPT the same way; write my boilerplate, let me think about logic.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#756

I have a simple front-end test that I give to junior devs. Every few months I see if ChatGPT can pass it. It hasn’t. It can’t. It isn’t even close. It answers questions confidently but with subtle inaccuracies. The code that it produces is the same kind of non-sense that you get from recent bootcamp devs who’ve “mastered” the 50 technologies on their eight page résumé. If it’s gotten better, I haven’t noticed. Self-d…

> I have a simple front-end test that I give to junior devs. What is it?

Making that claim but not sharing the "simple test" feels a bit pointless tbh.

Edit: I see, they don't want it to be scraped (cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38260496), though as another poster pointed out, submitting it might be enough for it to end up in the training data.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#757
post #6

Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough training resources on the subject matter. But even hypothetically if it was 20x better, wouldn’t that be a good thing? There’s so much of t…

> wouldn’t that be a good thing?

Only if you like technofeudalism—it’s not like you’re going to own any piece of that future.

Have you noticed AI becoming more and more open source like it still was at the start of the year, or has that kinda seized up? What gives?

It’s called a moat, it’s being dug, you’re on the wrong side of it.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#758
It's glorified autocomplete. The stuff that is annoying when you're at a proper keyboard with proper typing skills, but maybe not so bad when you're thumb typing on a smartphone. I've not personally used it, but someone else with very advanced skills, needing to code something in an unfamiliar programming language, asked ChatGPT to do it, got a "mostly right" boilerplate and fixed up the obvious errors, which was much quicker than learning the language enough to start from scratch. Autocomplete!

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#759
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s interesting. I think there’s a real shift going on in terms of what coding actually means I’ve never produced so much code so quickly and it’s disconcerting to the part of me that wants to feel like I earned the outcome on a pretty deep level because I can just generate shit that works so fast and then just edit it until I get exactly what I’m looking for and it feels like cheating in a weird way. I still don’…

Honestly, this reminds me of my early days when auto-complete and OOP was the best thing. It's why OOP proliferated, you type in the name of the object and get a list of completions in visual studio. No need to read docs or understand what you are doing, just find the method you need on that object. This new copilot coding reminds me of that, throwing shit and see what sticks, without understanding why and how it wor…

> I can't help to shake the thought that we will see heaps of mediocre code cranked out that just about works, even though the problem maybe required a tenth of that to solve it.

That’s just more of the same, isn’t it? IMO that’s already the current state of the industry.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#760

Do people seriously consider this the waning days of the craft? I don’t understand that. My view is that I am about to enter the quantum productivity period of coding. I am incredibly excited about AI assistance on my coding tasks, because it improves not only what I’m writing, but also helps me to learn as I go. I have never had a better time writing software than I have in the last year. I’ve been writing software…

I honestly think we’re entering an age where a skilled entrepreneur will be able to run a $10M/year business all by themselves with AI assisted coding, design and marketing.

Will GPT talk to customers, generate leads, manage sales cycles, customer support, etc. Come on.
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