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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

751–760 of 1001 posts

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#751
post #217
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. that's pretty obviously wrong. Look at the demographic sample of meth users; it's not just down-and-out on-the-street folks.[0] it's not some "i'm going to try heroin on my deathbed" drug; affluent people try/use it ro…

I think these are not the same people we’re talking about here (the people on the streets in SF).

It is.

Young bored person tries some meth at a party because they're bored, young and invincible. They like it and do it again, a few times, and now they're hooked. They want more all the time. Due to constantly being high or looking to get high, they fail at work or flunk out of school. What happens next?

If that person is from a wealthy family, maybe their family pays to put them into rehab, or brings them back to live at home, or pays their rent. The wealthy family has the resources to support the addict in some way and usually manages to keep them off the street.

If that person is from a more common sort of working class family? They have less money available to them, so they'll start to steal. They'll steal from their family, who don't have much in the first place. They'll get in fights about it and alienate themselves from their family. The house is small so everybody in it has to live close to everybody else, the situation becomes intolerable and eventually the addict is kicked out and cut loose. The family can't afford to do otherwise. They tell the addict to get clean and wish them luck. He's now homeless and will probably be dead in a few years.

Most street users aren't using because they're on the street. They're on the street because they're using.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#752
post #720
post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. Shame just doesn't work well at a practical level. To say nothing of the superpower that gives the shameless. Meanwhile, I find your alternative of "well if we don't have shame, we'll just have to make explicit laws about it" to be not a bad thing at…

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

Add sexual degeneracy to the list

Someone please explain to me how sexual degeneracy doesn’t exist. Its by definition bad, right? So if its not a problem doesnt that mean it doesn’t exist?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#753
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

We’re a nation that deeply stigmatizes the addicted, saddling them with shame and isolation; what makes you think that piling more shame onto them is going to change anything?

Shame makes people live lives of quiet desperation; it isn’t a building block in a healthy society.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#754
post #735
post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

That's the thing about shame, it's NOT your own standards, it's society's (your parents') standards that have been inculcated into you since before you were born. I remember a post by a guy on reddit who was waiting for his g/f in a gas station and tried on some sunglasses on the rack before he realized they were women's sunglasses. and he felt such an immense shock of shame that he almost threw them on the floor. He…

OK, now do pooping on a sidewalk

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. This is a strawman argument. I think what we're talking about is shame for having a reckless disregard for others. The way I think of it is we are increasingly living in a world where people are viewing other humans as "NPCs".

Is it a strawman? Isn’t that why we had the whole notion of being in the closet, to avoid shame to yourself and family? I get it — let’s have shame for the things that “we” want there to be shame about. I just don’t think there is good consensus on what that is.

You’re overlooking the economic context in which that social norm arose in subsistence agriculture societies. In the third-world village where my dad grew up, survival required getting married and having a couple of kids to make ends meet on the farm. The under-5 mortality rate was 1 in 5 so the adoption market was virtually non-existent. And there was little surplus generated by the village that could be used to support childless couples doing non-agricultural work. That was the reality of human history from the advent of agriculture until the 20th century (and in many parts of Africa and Asia, that’s still the reality).

So what function did shame serve in that society?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#756
If you read my replies to other threads in this discussion, you might imagine I agree with the pessimistic tone of the article. But change is hard. We have no rational basis to imagine that such a momentous policy (and enforcement) upheaval would not make things somewhat "worse" before they might become better. Or, whether the troubling anecdotes observed now under the new policy are truly statistically significant compared to the proportion of those benefitted by the change -- until a more thoughrough assessment can be conducted.

If people are hoping for a policy where literally no one "falls through the cracks", I'd have to suspect they had little to no experience with those who struggle with substance addiction.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#757
post #735
post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

That's the thing about shame, it's NOT your own standards, it's society's (your parents') standards that have been inculcated into you since before you were born. I remember a post by a guy on reddit who was waiting for his g/f in a gas station and tried on some sunglasses on the rack before he realized they were women's sunglasses. and he felt such an immense shock of shame that he almost threw them on the floor. He…

HN throttles me, so for other commenters I can't engage in a discussion with you but hope you see this.

You are conflating guilt and shame. You should feel shame when you do wrong just as much you should feel pain when your body is harmed. I have no desire to debate specifics of morality and get off topic, but if your guilt is correct then your shame is always correct.

A person who does not accept their guilt cannot feel shame.

It isn't society pressuring you to feel guilt, it is society pressuring you to use a specific way to measure right and wrong. You can reject that way and talk about other ways by using logic and reason. But ultimately, it is impossible to not have a means of determining right and wrong even that is only "unprovoked physical harm to others" unless you are a complete sociopath. And if you do have such a system, you should feel guilt when you violate that system.

You have a choice when encountering guilt, to justify your actions or find excuses or to feel shame. A healthy mindser in my opinion would not be imprisoned by shame but empowered by it to self-correct and make amends. That way, you can be at peace with yourself and others.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#758
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

It presents an interesting problem for those "left behind" who value shame, self-restraint, and other unpopular virtues. The neoliberal view is that you can prove your point by forming subcultures that do better than the surrounding culture. I think that's true, but it's a plan B - plan A should be to fight hard to not lose those values in the first place. It's appalling that public discourse about systemic issues ha…

> It's appalling that public discourse about systemic issues has entirely displaced talk of personal responsibility.

Well, many don’t believe in personal responsibility. Some argue individuals are inextricably bound by the shortcomings of society and society must account for that.

Its kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It presents an interesting problem for those "left behind" who value shame, self-restraint, and other unpopular virtues. The neoliberal view is that you can prove your point by forming subcultures that do better than the surrounding culture. I think that's true, but it's a plan B - plan A should be to fight hard to not lose those values in the first place. It's appalling that public discourse about systemic issues ha…

If you’re talking about public policy, IMO personal moral opinions have no place. Do you really want the state teaching “personal responsibility”? Even if you did, do you really think they could do it effectively? We have the highest prison population per capita as it is. It’s been tried. Over and over. Using the idea that millions of people are just morally deficient as public policy is a proven failure. There’s alw…

It can’t really come from public policy by definition. Public policy would look different in a world where people expect personal responsibility. But it cannot be mandated by the state. Its a value.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#760
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ex of someone I know is both a user and a dealer. He opted to be homeless over getting clean. Sadly here in the states there is little you can do if an adult chooses a self destructive path - calls to sheriff/police did nothing - “nothing we can do until he commits a crime”. Where “crime” is something other than the drug use/possession. This individual has always been self absorbed and useless. His daughter asked…

What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Well, some people will choose, willingly, to waste their life away living on the streets from one high to the next. The difference between most types of poverty and this, is that they *chose* this path. Bodily autonomy has powerful upsides, as well as downsides. Here's one of the downsides. If they wanted to 'get out', I'd be there to help them if I knew them. But they have…

>Forcing your viewpoint on them makes you just as a horrible person as the judges throwing people in locked boxes for decades for a bit of white powder they injected

Are you an anarchist? If not, then please explain how every law you support is not forcing your viewpoint on others?

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