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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#751

Post by therein »

ivanstojic wrote: post #585
devsda wrote: post #397

There are many arguments against this but not many brought the implications for search engines. If websites implement this, it will effectively make building a web search engine impossible for new entrants. The current players can whitelist/attest their own clients while categorizing every other scraping clients as bots. If not for other reasons, I can't see how Google a search company can be allowed to push somethin…

How would this work against scrapers that are based on driven anpproved browser instances, eg. something like Selenium?

The browser instance knows it is being driven by an automation agent. If you so wanted, you can actually comment out the code that does that in the browser's code but since this new setup will enable the page to check if you compiled your own browser, they'll be able to incorporate the "isUnderAutomation" flag under the attestation data and that's sealed because you can't build your own browser and have it attest.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#752

Post by slig »

matkoniecz wrote: post #640
slig wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 5% of global usage [1], and no presence whatsoever on mobile. Pretty much dead. [1]: https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage And CF stats doesn't depend on JavaScript.

4% of global browser usage can be described in many ways (defeated, miserable, collapse compared to the past etc) but it definitely is not dead and is one of few developed browsers.

There's no plan, no growth, they don't have a mobile OS, and users will use whatever browser (aka, "the internet") comes with their device. On Windows, Edge is being heavily "promoted". Most of the technical people I know gave up, unfortunately.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#753

Post by toyg »

varispeed wrote: post #727
toyg wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft was the same, and still they were humbled into opening the space for others (with the browser-choosing screen at first boot). If people are noisy enough, lawmakers can be distracted from their payola.

That was in 2001. It wouldn't happen today - see Apple and their walled garden.

Antitrust authorities in both US and EU are literally fighting these monopolies right now, with huge fines and increasingly vicious inquiries. Don't be defeatist.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#754

Post by numpad0 »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #685
matkoniecz wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And Mozilla is long past dead. Mozilla is far from healthy but calling it dead is overstating things.

Mozilla is on life support. Not quite dead. Perhaps in a coma.

>85% funded by Google Search revenue share. Wheelchaired around unconscious.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#755

Post by zzo38computer »

easyThrowaway wrote: post #273

Get the Wikipedia Foundation on board and make sure the wikipedia or other big mediawiki hosts refuse to show any kind of content if such feature is detected in the browser. Also, if you're a distro mantainer, configure apache and nginx defaults to make this is the default behaviour. Even better: instead of redirecting to any wall of text with a long explanation of the political and technical reasons of this choice,…

I do not agree with configuring apache and nginx to do that by default, unless WEI would somehow prevent a server that doesn't understand it from working properly (as far as I can tell, that is not the case). (A system administrator could still change the configuration; this is only about the default setting.)

However, I think the other stuff that you had mentioned would be OK.

Furthermore, a distro maintainer could configure clients by default to disable WEI (or to not include client programs that have WEI).

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#756

Post by toyg »

jamiek88 wrote: post #729
toyg wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" already waged a grassroot browser-war campaign in the late '90s-early '00s, when Mozilla was born and eventually birthed Firefox. It was successful enough to seriously dent the Microsoft monopoly, creating the political conditions for antitrust authorities to deliver significant hits to their power. It can be done again. Just drop the fucking Chromium bullshit now.

While I don’t want to be defeatist the web was smaller then, we had a common enemy in Microsoft that actively made the web worse. Google makes it better for ordinary people. Or at least gives them that impression due to sites targeting chrome. Firefox was an easy sell because it was just better for the user and importantly the dev tools were a quantum leap ahead. The web was largely still made up of enthusiasts, very…

> While I don’t want to be defeatist the web was smaller then

Yeah, but that also means that fines can be much bigger now, and make bigger headlines - which is what politics is about.

> Any fight back that isn’t mobile first is doomed.

This is actually a prime chance to highlight that mobile needs serious antitrust work.

Firefox on mobile exists, btw. Are you using it?

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#757

Post by burkaman »

minsc_and_boo wrote: post #623
mplewis wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WEI turns non-compliant browsers into second-class citizens. You’re perfectly free to use whatever compliant browser engine and OS combo you like today – but in a world with WEI, you’ll have to use Approved Chrome on an Approved OS on Approved Hardware with Approved Signing Keys, or you won’t be able to sign into your bank.

Is there any way around this, like spoofing headers or OS specs?

No, Google has plenty of skilled engineers that can make spoofing an attestation extremely difficult. It will probably rely on hardware that you cannot modify. See details of a plausible implementation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36859465

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#758

Post by wsgeorge »

mozball wrote: post #180
maxloh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately Firefox doesn't have a good UI/UX after all. The last time I checked, multiple profiles support is somehow half-baked.

Multiple profiles is fully supported. It's just hidden behind a clunky UX. Also check out firefox containers which is to profiles what docker is to virtual machines.

> It's just hidden behind a clunky UX.

That's part of the "problem" with Firefox's support of profiles. It feels more like an afterthought and less like a primary use case the product wants to surface. To approximate the functionality Chrome has, I had to bookmark "about:profiles" and make it my home page.

Chrome also added this nifty feature that lets you open links as a Profile, making it easy to switch.

These may seem like small issues, but the end up mattering.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#760

Post by wsgeorge »

luuurker wrote: post #283
mozball wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple profiles is fully supported. It's just hidden behind a clunky UX. Also check out firefox containers which is to profiles what docker is to virtual machines.

Containers are useful, but it's like having a few similar terminal windows open. Eventually you'll type something on the wrong window... at least I found myself searching for personal stuff on my work Google container. With profiles I can have different bookmarks, extensions, and even a different theme so I'm aware I'm on my personal profile, not on a work profile. Since switching profiles on Firefox + macOS is a pai…

> Anyway, containers are nice, but they're not a replacement for profiles.

This, so much. Anytime I've brought up profiles on Firefox, I'm told about this alternative that isn't a replacement for the feature.

Safari is (finally) bringing this, so maybe the folks at FF will begin to see this as a feature worth investing in. First-class profiles support is one of the main reasons I stick to Chrome, despite trying to switch.

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