Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.
It's starting to get traction. For instance, this is a government-sponsored organisation in the UK trying to encourage it in banking: https://www.progresstogether.co.uk/our-purpose/ There are similar orgs for consulting and law. Not heard of any for the FAANG/start-up/tech world.
Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
751–760 of 898 posts
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#752Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wait, what is "neo-Marxism"? When he's not busy "waging moral war on Disney", Rufo is full of weird stuff like this --- "neo-Marxism" is a turn of phrase most famous for its use in Jordan Peterson's nonsensical coinage "postmodern neo-Marxism". Marxism is distinguished as an ideology by totalizing class consciousness. That's the opposite of wokeness, which ratifies identity politics. In fact, "wokeness" is a fault li…
I think the parallel to Marxism that is being made here is more about epistemology and the rules of debate than about economic systems. In Marxist terms, when your opponent disagrees with you, you don't engage with their argument on its merits, but look for deeper structural factors that have led them into such serious ideological error, factors that render your opponent incapable of understanding the truth of your c…
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#753Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…
Hmm... this sounds an awful lot like, "because you're responding to a comment made by a black person, the only acceptable response is one of total agreement". I think you might want to reflect for a minute on the importance of nuance in a discussion, and the net effect of trying to police comments on others' behalf. I completely believe the commenter's experience, but I also witnessed the opposite a lot (and was deep…
This is clearly a strawman. I wrote nothing remotely like what you're describing. I asked you to think about what prompted you to redirect the conversation away from a black person's experience of racism and towards whatever your idea of an injustice was. My hope was that upon such reflection, you might realize that black people experience these sorts of microagressions and dismissals routinely, and that such things add salt to the wounds caused by racism.
Instead, you went the fragility route. There couldn't possibly be something for you to learn here. No, instead, you have to create a strawman to protect your fragile ego from the idea that maybe you did something hurtful to someone, inadvertently or otherwise.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#754Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…
I think you might want to reflect for a minute that you are playing the exact DEI game that the OP is complaining about. You are dismissing your parent post's argument without addressing content of the argument. Essentially, your post boils down to "Don't argue with Black people. "Lived Experience" trumps all rhetoric and discussion. In the future, please keep your thoughts and concerns to yourself." You are fosterin…
When someone says "I experienced racism because I'm black," the appropriate response is not "Well, actually, lots of people who aren't black experienced that terrible thing." So what if lots of non-black people experienced that terrible thing? That's not what we're talking about here. Your statement is re-centering the conversation away from the black person who's describing their experience. And you know what? It's the black people who are being routinely discriminated against, incarcerated, and killed because of racism, so maybe it's irrelevant to say "my feelings were hurt on IRC too."
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#755Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…
> but I think you'll find that the net effect of your comment is still one of dismissing a black person's lived experience Pointing out that those venues were full of anti-everything hate is not dismissing a black person's experience, it's validating it, while pointing out that he's not alone.
An abuser on IRC calling a black person the n-word is objectively more harmful than an abuser on IRC calling pretty much anyone else pretty much any slur.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#756Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Pointing out that those venues were full of anti-everything hate is not dismissing a black person's experience, it's validating it, while pointing out that he's not alone. But it implicitly implies the negative experiences were similar in scale unless otherwise noted. It downplays the very large weight that racism adds to the negativity of that experience even if the intent is a noble one of making that person not…
Or, maybe you’re the one projecting negativity for assuming that the existence of another anecdote downplays the black one in play? I give it no such credence.
Do you not see how that response is problematic? How it downplays the person's experience?
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#757Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…
And you're here dismissing their experience because they're not black. See the issue?
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#758Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hmm... this sounds an awful lot like, "because you're responding to a comment made by a black person, the only acceptable response is one of total agreement". Not true. There is another acceptable response - not posting, taking some time to read and reflect, and moving along with your day. You no doubt have any number of other things you could be doing, but you’re in here. Might be worth thinking about why that is.
> You no doubt have any number of other things you could be doing, but you’re in here. Might be worth thinking about why that is. Obviously this applies to you as well. Maybe you've taken what I wrote as some sort of disagreement or getting defensive or... something? And then from there concluding that I shouldn't be allowed to participate? I'm not sure, but this is a discussion site and I'm participating in the disc…
Do you genuinely not see how "adding nuance" to a "semi-shared experience" is taking the focus away from the parent commenter's experience? When someone is recounting racism they suffered, how is adding "other people experienced other kinds of hate" adding any nuance? Do you genuinely believe that there's valuable common ground between, for example, a black person being called the n-word and another person who isn't black being called the n-word or some other slur?
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#759Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the parallel to Marxism that is being made here is more about epistemology and the rules of debate than about economic systems. In Marxist terms, when your opponent disagrees with you, you don't engage with their argument on its merits, but look for deeper structural factors that have led them into such serious ideological error, factors that render your opponent incapable of understanding the truth of your c…
I'm more inclined to take your word for it than Chris Rufo's, but I don't see what's distinctively Marxist about the rhetorical pathology you're talking about. That same nihilistic structuralism animated fascism, too, didn't it? If you're describing a thing and it's opposite at the same time...?
A lot of anti-CRT rhetoric is clearly trying to use the Marxism link to discredit, out-of-hand, CRT. American politics has long been like that--guilt by association with Socialism. I understand the reflexive instinct to push back. But if you try to deny that the links exist, all you're doing is discrediting yourself and others, bolstering those pundits' credibility. The links absolutely exist and are substantial. The nuance is that they're not substantial in the ways that their rhetoric implies. (It's like if you took Christianity and replaced Jesus with Santa Claus. You couldn't plausibly claim the new religion wasn't an offshoot of Christianity, and much of it would be indecipherable without understanding historical Christianity and the figure of Jesus. But it would simultaneously be true that the new religion would in some of its most fundamental dimensions be entirely incompatible and incomparable to Christianity.)
If anybody wants to have an informed opinion on these debates, they could do much worse than reading Frantz Fanon. IMO, CRT begins and ends with Frantz Fanon. If you read one of his seminal works, "Black Skin, White Faces", you've read all you'll ever need to read regarding the ideological underpinnings of not only CRT but much of modern liberal American identity politics, either because it descends directly from Fanon, or because Fanon expertly articulates the experiences and reasoning. I found it a very powerful and enlightening book.[1] But Fanon takes (in the book, but especially in subsequent works and the arc of his entire public life) the ideology to its logical conclusion, which is permanent apartheid, and therefore lays bare the stark choice being made when one adopts the axioms shared between liberal identity politics and Fanon's philosophy. I can't refute Fanon's ultimate conclusion that black-skinned minorities will never be able to find equality among a white-skinned majority (or, presumably, vice-versa if the historical script were flipped), but I choose to believe that there must exist some way to get there; otherwise as Fanon persuasively argues, all identity politics can possibly do is mitigate some of the worst injustices, but ultimately never eradicate the fundamental inequities. And therein lies much of Fanon's motivation for his Marxism advocacy--he thought the only way forward was for black countries to go their own way, and that necessarily involved adopting Marxism as capitalist systems would ultimately benefit the white, colonial establishment at the expense of black countries and communities.
Also, FWIW, modern Marxist scholarship provides some of the most vehement and technical opposition to CRT for precisely the reason you hinted at--replacing class conflict with racial conflict is anathema to Marxism. But when you read that scholarship, it's also obvious that CRT and Marxism use nearly identical language. CRT is indisputably descended from the culture of Marxist scholarship. That's also why modern Marxists are so adept at counterarguments--they're familiar with many of the underlying modes of reasoning. (20th century Marxists weren't very interested in opposing these philosophies for geopolitical reasons.)
[1] I first read it 20 years ago, before CRT entered mainstream liberal discourse, and before I had any knowledge of CRT as a school of thought or movement. When I did learn of CRT, the parallels to Fanon's ideas were immediately obvious. Until then mainstream liberal identity politics hadn't moved much beyond, say, Cornel West's philosophy in "Race Matters". West has always been very careful to not cross the line into race essentializing territory, and it's for that reason that in the past several years West has been condemned by the identity politics movement as it continues to follow identity politics to its logical end.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#760Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm positive that Satya and Sundar are great motivators for indian kids to look up to (as they should be). I'm doubtful about that. At least among my cohort (first generation south asian immigrants to the east coast) there's not a strong sense of racial identity. There's strong identity in the sense of ties to religion, home countries, culture, and traditions, but not group identification or a feeling of collective…
> To the contrary, "representation" is used by white people to obtain the support of minority groups without giving them anything. I see white people pressuring my daughter to look up to Kamala Harris (because Harris "looks like her"). This is just manipulation. Harris will not meaningfully advance the distinct interests of south asian people, nor is she a good model of south asian culture or values. It's also not ha…
Yes. There are many white people who align on skin color. That's how the US Antebellum South, SA Apartheid and WW2 persecution of Jews worked.