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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#751

Post by undersuit »

brianmurphy wrote: post #724
leshow wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing the fact that the existence of LGBTQ people is being acknowledged finally in the mainstream with some sort of shift of what the 'dominant culture' is. All of these things you listed merely acknowledge that non-cis gendered people exist, that's it. There is no massive shift in the mainstream culture. In fact, there are legions of reactionaries incredibly aggrieved by having this existence "shoved in t…

The dominance of queer culture goes much farther than simply existing. Criticize it in even the most mild way at most companies and expect to be fired from your job. The dominance goes even further. Direct criticism isn't necessary. Try to promote straight culture and you'll also get dogpiled and fired. (Brandon Eich)

Brandon was promoting the dominant culture by suppressing others.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#752

Post by undersuit »

ticviking wrote: post #519
undersuit wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trads never left. They are the majority.

How many Christians do you know who fast, or pray the daily hours? How many who are devout enough to respond when someone takes the name of the Lord in vain? As a cultural stream "Trads" are definitely distinct from Conservative Protestantism or the evangelical movement.

I've spent a good amount of time and effort distancing myself from religion and specifically Christianity for about 20 years.

So 0.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#753

Post by _gabe_ »

zamfi wrote: post #456
_gabe_ wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences. You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to exp…

> You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere. You don’t, which is why I said: > or even different parts of the same city But while it is present almost everywhere, it is not pervasive everywhere. Surely at your private Christian university there are many who hold traditional views — just as there are some at Berkeley, near me — and I’d be pretty surprised…

> But while it is present almost everywhere, it is not pervasive everywhere.

"Present almost everywhere" is in fact what pervasive means :)

The thesaurus lists these words as some synonyms of pervasive:

Widespread, prevalent, common, present, popular, majority, predominant.[0]

Just because the culture isn't accepted by every single person on planet earth doesn't mean it's not pervasive. There were plenty of pockets of communities in the early 20th century and late 19th century that didn't follow the traditional norms of Christianity that existed in the west. But I think we would both agree that Christianity/catholicism was pervasive in the west in those time periods.

After all, Nietzsche, Oscar Wilde, Darwin, Marx, Bertrand Russell and more were popular with different communities at the time, even though they were definitely counter to the pervasive culture of Christianity/catholicism then.

And I agree with you about how it's surprising that even at a Christian university, the traditional values of Christianity aren't taught! The example I gave was just one of the things I thought of off the top of my head. There were several other examples that gave me the feeling that the majority of the students weren't interested in traditional values. Chapel was a running joke among the students, nobody really cared and just went since the credit was required. People in positions of leadership that didn't align with the trendy culture slowly got replaced throughout my time there. We routinely got lectured on diversity and equity and how the university was devoted to it. I have friends who are gay that let me know how widespread the lgbt+ community at the university was (among professors and students).

I could go on, but my point was that even in the rural south, plenty of people are afraid to go against the trendy culture. My experience was simply some anecdata to your presumption that the rural South does not have a significant majority of people also following the trends of liberal cities. It's definitely less pronounced, but it's also definitely pervasive.

[0]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/pervasive

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#754

Post by jancsika »

Perceval wrote: post #677
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

[flagged]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#755

Post by mahogany »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #700
mahogany wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median income is a very different measurement from "wealth, corporate power and political power" within a group, especially one so large.

Ok, find a metric that supports the assertion.

I don't know if the original assertion is true. I'm only pointing out that median income doesn't say much about wealth and power within a group.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#756

Post by friend_and_foe »

There is absolutely a counterculture, but you won't really see it in the usual "public spaces." Even if the members of it are there, the spaces dont allow expression of it, so it's not there. You won't find ot on Facebook and TV, what you'll find are caricatures of a previous counterculture expressed by the establishment, posing as a counterculture.

The real counterculture is on the edges and in the shadows, as it always has been, but it's cultural form does not take the form you'd expect if you're looking for it that way. It's not wearing all black, it doesn't have nose rings, it doesnt listen to edgy music, there is no consumerist element to it being exploited by corporations yet, that's actually a cultural cornerstone of it. It looks a lot like business as usual from the outside, but it isn't.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#757

Post by undersuit »

rootusrootus wrote: post #522
undersuit wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone is comfortable advertising their sexuality to strangers. Is that possibly because of the Traditional dominant culture?

Do you think only the 'traditional dominant culture' has a desire for personal privacy? I tend to view privacy as more fundamental, and in my experience most people want a good amount of it. I do not feel unique when I say that regardless of who I am attracted to and/or having sexual relations with (or nobody at all), this is only my business (and my partner, if they exist). I can name a number of people in my family…

Trads are perfectly fine advertising their sexuality to strangers. Some wear pants, some wear dresses.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#758

Post by pohl »

Perceval wrote: post #677
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

Us: Mom, can we get a counter-culture?

Mom: We have a counter-culture at home.

The counter-culture at home: 4chan incels

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#759

Post by flangola7 »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #441
flangola7 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>except for finance, media, academia and politics. But those are dominated by straight white men. A simple demographic survey of Congress and org executives will show that. What are you talking about?

Did the janizary rule the ottomans or did the ottomans rule the janizary? The janizary held most if the powerful positions after all.

I'm not familiar enough with that part of world history to comment. Speak plainly.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#760

Post by undersuit »

ur-whale wrote: post #655
narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

> 60 years from now they might look like the good guys. If they're anti Ukraine war, they already are.

The anti-war people, not so much... or did something change since insert major US military operation that started in your youth>?
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