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Queen Elizabeth II has died

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Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#751

It's weird, I've never considered myself a "royalist" but this news has affected me quite strongly. I just burst into tears unexpectedly on hearing this news and I don't quite understand why I feel so very sad. I guess I have grown up and lived my whole life (as a Brit) seeing and hearing the Queen, singing "God save the Queen" etc, and this news made me suddenly feel very old, very nostalgic, with the sense that all…

Fellow Brit here. I share this sentiment. I've never had strong views for or against the royal family but always felt genuine respect towards the Queen herself. She always appeared to be a morally strong character who tried to do the right thing. I always expected this would feel like a very strange moment when it finally arrived. I wasn't wrong.

I'm am American, but with a substantial Commonwealth connection. I am vigorously, vocally, unapologetically antiroyal. (I'm going to take this to an absurd extreme to make point, not to be incendiary.) I despise the whole cosplay, exploitative embrace of what is effectively an echo of dictatorship.

But...

Elizabeth was a remarkable person, filled with evident curiosity and willingness to connect with people despite being a reserved personality. She was a bit mischievous. She wasn't defined by her job, she defined it.

And beyond that, there are just so many constants that are about to change. I keep thinking how lucky we are that we have cashless transactions, because the abrupt switch from the ubiquity of Elizabeth's face would have been much more noticeable 15 years ago (which sounds like a non sequitur, but ... her face is everywhere on money).

Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#752
post #153

Some view the monarchy as anachronistic. Of course there's merit to that argument but the monarchy as an institution really doesn't cost that much and has worked in the British political system as really a check on abuse of government power. The Queen's consent in forming government is routine but it can be withheld. Australia had an example of this where the Governor General (the Queen's representative in the Austra…

>... check on abuse of government power. The Queen's consent in forming government is routine but it can be withheld... > Australia had an example of this where the Governor General (the Queen's representative in the Australian government) sacked the government and formed a caretaker governmen tin the 1970s. Australia was ruled by a Liberal/Country coalition from the 1940s to the end of 1972. Finally the workers of A…

> then removed at the behest of a hereditary monarch thousands of miles away. That sounds like abuse

You forgot to mention the part where Australia immediately held an election. The poor victimised Labour party, who you would have us believe was wrongly removed, lost the vote by a landslide.

If the people wanted Whitlam's government, and thought it was a grave injustice, they would have voted them back in. They were clearly unpopular given the election results. The end result was decided by the people, not the Queen/Governor General/Liberals.

Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#756
post #695
post #333

As a Brit I'm not a huge fan of the royal family on principle, but Queen Elizabeth has been such an excellent head of state for us you really can't fault her. People like to make out her life was easy and that it's not fair that she inherited such a privileged position, but I think the exact opposite. Her life seemed like living hell to me. Every day for the last 70 years she's had to serve this largely ungrateful co…

Why do you need a queen in 21st century? Can't the Brits abolish royalty, how they abolished slavery?

I used to be a staunch republican but I’m not so sure where I stand now. Look at what happened in America with Trump. The US came somewhat close to having a total takeover of the government by one party/individual e.g. a dictatorship.

In the UK, our Armed Forces actually pledge alliance to the monarch, not the government. And the monarch is meant to stay out of all politics. In theory, if a prime minister/government decided to go rogue and try to become a dictatorship, the monarch is a last line of defence that can stand in the way and restore order.

Of course one could argue that the monarch is in fact the dictator you’re trying to stop, or that there’s nothing to stop a monarch of bad moral character from becoming a dictator. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. But I no longer look as poorly at Constitutional Democracies as I once did or Republics as richly.

With a Republic you’re basically playing the “wisdom of numbers” card, and hoping that through the various votes, from party elections through to national elections, a person of decent enough moral character is elected into the highest position of power. With the British system, you’re putting faith that the strict rules, customs and ceremonies that dictate the education and behaviour of the Royal Family translate into monarchs that have the moral character to deal with the position. With Liz that worked out extraordinarily well. If it had been someone like Prince Andrew, probably not so much.

When seen through this lens, the pomp and ceremonies stop looking archaic and quaint and start to make a bit more sense. It’s why there’s such a massive divide between the Meghan/Harry camp and the Royal Family. Meghan and Harry see the strict protocols as constricting the individual and they’re completely right. However, that’s the whole point, the member of the royal family is meant to be constrained and molded into the function they’re meant to perform in service of the people as the individual instinct runs the greatest risk of turning the monarch into a dictator.

I would say this is the defining factor between US and UK culture and why there has always been a bit of confusion and misunderstanding of each other, going right back to the war of independence; America values that individual dream more than anything else whereas the Brits distrust it because of its potential dark side to tyranny. Brits gloss over the mental health issues (stiff upper lip) that accompany giving up your individual dreams in favour of slotting neatly into your allocated function in the class system and the Americans gloss over that chasing dreams can sometimes end up being purely self serving.

Based on current trends, the UK (and the world) is trending more towards the US way of things, driven primarily by technology and the internet. 30 years ago, if you wanted to watch anything on TV tonight your only option would have been coverage of the Queen’s death, which is mandated to run on all channels. This would have formed a pretty formidable “group mourning mentality” or “collective consciousness”. Today that is diluted somewhat by the fact that you can stream whatever you want whenever you want; the group no longer holds as much power over the individual.

It’s this ideological and psychological component that I actually think is an argument in favour of Republics or at least reforming the monarchy to enforce retirement at a certain age. Is it really fair to expect someone to dedicate their entire life in service of the people? Elizabeth did it from 25 to 96. She was literally performing duties 48 hours before her death. It’s an almost superhuman level of public service, like Frodo carrying the ring, and we shouldn’t really be asking anyone to do it for their entire lives. Even Sam had to carry it the final distance through Mordor. The woman deserved a rest. But then she loved doing it which is what made her such a great queen.

Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#757

It's weird, I've never considered myself a "royalist" but this news has affected me quite strongly. I just burst into tears unexpectedly on hearing this news and I don't quite understand why I feel so very sad. I guess I have grown up and lived my whole life (as a Brit) seeing and hearing the Queen, singing "God save the Queen" etc, and this news made me suddenly feel very old, very nostalgic, with the sense that all…

I feel the same. I think it’s because it really represents the end of an era. The 20th and early 21st century ushered in unprecedented improvements to quality of life in Britain but it has felt of late that that has peaked and the country is facing a serious decline: Brexit, the increasingly visible effects of climate change, the aftermath of covid, the possible break up of the union, rising costs of living, recessio…

None of those things you mentioned are real or big problems visible at an individual level any more than the problems of previous decades. If nobody told you they'd happened, you'd be enjoying the same stability and comfort as before. Perhaps the problem is how the media presents events, not the events themselves.

Without an objective way to measure "badness", all you're doing it reflecting what the TV told you to feel.

Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same. I think it’s because it really represents the end of an era. The 20th and early 21st century ushered in unprecedented improvements to quality of life in Britain but it has felt of late that that has peaked and the country is facing a serious decline: Brexit, the increasingly visible effects of climate change, the aftermath of covid, the possible break up of the union, rising costs of living, recessio…

My understanding is that the late 70s and early 80s in England was a hopeless place. As evidence I submit Alan Moore's introduction to V for Vendetta and Ghost Town by the Specials. - https://slendertroll.tumblr.com/post/66114152363 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Town_(Specials_song) "Naivete can also be detected in my supposition that it would take something as melodramatic as a near-miss nuclear conflict to…

Punk and goth also emerged in the 70s, with the UK as a particular hotpot. I don't think that's a sign of economic prosperity.

Re: Queen Elizabeth II has died

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same. I think it’s because it really represents the end of an era. The 20th and early 21st century ushered in unprecedented improvements to quality of life in Britain but it has felt of late that that has peaked and the country is facing a serious decline: Brexit, the increasingly visible effects of climate change, the aftermath of covid, the possible break up of the union, rising costs of living, recessio…

None of those things you mentioned are real or big problems visible at an individual level any more than the problems of previous decades. If nobody told you they'd happened, you'd be enjoying the same stability and comfort as before. Perhaps the problem is how the media presents events, not the events themselves. Without an objective way to measure "badness", all you're doing it reflecting what the TV told you to fe…

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