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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#751

Post by lern_too_spel »

sizzle wrote: post #676
moab wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claims made in this post are in dire need of citations, and don't strike me as believable. And just FWIW, most first-generation Indians in America couldn't give two shits about the caste system.

Highly agree on your second point, many first generation born south Asians I work for or work with that grew up within the suburbs couldn’t care less caste and simply don’t relate or identify with their parent’s generation and caste affiliation, they just want to be seen as American and are treated as such. Only older heads who immigrated here are the lions share of individuals perpetuating this caste based discrimin…

In my admittedly limited experience, people born to Indian parents in the US don't care about caste unless they are Brahmin, in which case, they'll be taught their caste rituals. Indians recently arrived from India care a lot more because reservation (think affirmative action by caste) and Hindu nationalism have become a big deal in Indian politics.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#752

Post by ajross »

noduerme wrote: post #710
kelnos wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So sure: Introduce new ways that people can feel like they've been discriminated against. But this isn't "new" and isn't a "feeling". Caste-based discrimination is real among Indians. This is not even remotely new. And it's not a "feeling". It happens, and it's widespread. > This white guilt If you feel guilty, then maybe you should sit down and think about why. I'm a white dude. I don't feel guilty. I feel disappo…

I'm not white and I don't feel guilty - nor should white people who aren't racist. My point is that white guilt and white racism are two sides of the same coin. The endless hunt for new forms of oppression which do not legally exist in America, such as the caste system, has the extremely undesirable effect of actually defining and codifying them into law here, even if that law is intended initially to protect some gr…

> You treat everyone equally. Speak up against anyone who doesn't.

So... how do you square that with preventing a caste bias activist from speaking at Google? What Soundararajan does is quite literally speaking up against people who don't treat others equally.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#754

Post by seoaeu »

photochemsyn wrote: post #429
seoaeu wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Only the Jews in country behave like ” isn’t the racially tolerant statement you think it is…

Clearly not all Jews in Israel believe that Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians etc. should be treated as second-class citizens. I'm also not sure that religious identity is to be viewed as 'racial identity' unless you want to revive the definition found in the German Race Laws of the 1930s.

> I'm also not sure that religious identity is to be viewed as 'racial identity' unless you want to revive the definition found in the German Race Laws of the 1930s.

Personally, I'd suggest using the definitions that people use for themselves. And if you do that, you'll find that there are both religious and ethnic components.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#755

Post by handoflixue »

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #748
rajup wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. So how is it a caste marker? Heck I wear it only during certain ceremonies. So the point the gp was making about people wearing the sacred thread condoning the caste system and discrimination is patently false and bigoted.

>Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. But only Brahmins have the right to wear it. Wearing a "sacred thread" in a society that wants to eliminate caste based discrimination is promoting and condoning discrimination. As an extreme example, how is this different from a klan member choosing to wear a "hood" in public.

Only members of the KKK wear a hood, and all members of the KKK tautologically support racism.

Presumably it is possible to be Brahmin, without supporting caste discrimination.

A better analogy would be: Do you feel it should be illegal to mention have a degree from Yale or Harvard? They're both markers of status, and people absolutely discriminate based on that, but I don't think "I have a degree from Harvard" automatically makes you complicit in that.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#756

Post by anonymousab »

ridiculous_leke wrote: post #483
nyolfen wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can assure you there is no hidden community of brahmins that look out for each other and help each other succeed and I doubt there is for most castes in India. 2 seconds on google https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-...

What was the result of the lawsuit? Is Cisco guilty?

Still ongoing. But given that one of Cisco's arguments is simply "how dare you, Caste discrimination isn't illegal!" I don't see them as particularly deserving of any benefit of the doubt.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#757

Post by cuteboy19 »

dataexporter wrote: post #667
cuteboy19 wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unthinkable in any IIT/NIT in India. I think casteism is somewhat worse in the US

Well. I am from an NIT in India and upper caste groupism is super common there. Of course to an outsider it seems like these are guys from the same high school and same hostel hanging out, but in reality it is mostly upper caste Brahmins in those high schools as well who end up continuing their groupism and favoritism in college and beyond. The same groupism exists even today - decades later. You see the same upper c…

Groupism is one thing but this kind of brazen discrimination is absurd. I never saw any case of people refusing lower caste roommates for example

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#758

Post by machinerychorus »

endominus wrote: post #624
machinerychorus wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's actually pretty simple. Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. The fed publishes a lot of this data[1], you can see for yourself. There are also lots of other things to look at, like rate of incarceration. The effect is real, and there are basically two explanations: Either it's due to systemic oppression, or its due to non-white racial groups being inherently inferior. Unless you're racist…

>Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. Why are the data for Asian people not shown on those graphs? It only lists Black, Hispanic, and White. Is it because (at least according to the stats on Wikipedia[0], sourced from the US Census) they don't reinforce that narrative? In fact, according to that data, the median white income is ~$66K, which is surpassed by Ghanaians (~$69K), South Africans (~$98K),…

The data for asian americans isn't shown on that graph because the underlying data used for the graph groups people into white, black, hispanic, and other. I apologize for saying "non-white" when I really meant "black and/or hispanic".

Yes, there are some ethnic groups that have higher median incomes, but that doesn't mean there isn't a racial disparity in america. The fact of the matter is that african americans, as a group, have much less wealth than white americans, as a group. If a person believes this is due to some "inherent racial trait", they're a racist, plain and simple. On the other hand, if one accepts that this is not due to any inherent racial trait, then one has to look at American culture and history with an open mind and try to understand how it came to be that way (the fact that asian americans don't see the same disparities as african americans is an important clue here).

I'm glad to see that you are interested in solving problems of inequality and engaging in a good faith discussion with me on this complex social issue.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#759

Post by noduerme »

ajross wrote: post #752
noduerme wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not white and I don't feel guilty - nor should white people who aren't racist. My point is that white guilt and white racism are two sides of the same coin. The endless hunt for new forms of oppression which do not legally exist in America, such as the caste system, has the extremely undesirable effect of actually defining and codifying them into law here, even if that law is intended initially to protect some gr…

> You treat everyone equally. Speak up against anyone who doesn't. So... how do you square that with preventing a caste bias activist from speaking at Google? What Soundararajan does is quite literally speaking up against people who don't treat others equally.

I'm not in favor of preventing anyone from speaking. I started this by seconding parent's point that a lot of times it's better to move on with making a success of life and not know or not focus on the potential motivation of people who might be quietly discriminating against you.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#760

Post by eyelidlessness »

namecheapTA wrote: post #747
eyelidlessness wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very little in common with either Clinton, but it’s hard to disagree with that assessment (even though it’s misconstrued), given the facts. Basically everyone that could be harmed by their coalition has been or is in their sights. Basically every bit of progress to make our society more inclusive has been under threat. The defectors from that program have been high profile but very lonely in their principled s…

The problem is I feel the same way about your side, and even worse really. You're trying to take away my guns while leaving it for people that can afford security. You're trying to talk to my kids about sensitive sexual issues at crazy young ages. You're trying to make it harder for my kids to get jobs or go to college because they were born a certain color. You're trying to make it harder to lock people away for maj…

> You're trying to take away my guns while leaving it for people that can afford security.

I mean this with a surprised but real sincerity. I’m a former gun rights advocate and this notion was a big reason why I was. Don’t get me wrong, I do want to selectively restrict gun access. I want to preserve it for hunters, and potentially for severe cases where individuals are acutely threatened. I don’t otherwise want private individuals or police or state organizations to have access.

> You're trying to talk to my kids about sensitive sexual issues at crazy young ages.

I understand the origin of this point but it doesn’t faze me. Know how I learned too early about sexual issues? My brand new step brother had been raped by his father who very much shares your views on this topic. He told me to warn me, at my mom’s wedding. That’s how I learned about sexual topics I wasn’t prepared for. His father had his record erased. My family kept it secret but I knew, every time it came up in hushed tones. Spare me keeping kids safe from talking about sex.

> You're trying to make it harder for my kids to get jobs or go to college because they were born a certain color.

I don’t know what this is even about, but I didn’t go to college so maybe enlighten me.

> You're trying to make it harder to lock people away for major property crimes

Not even slightly cheeky… huh???

> You're trying to make it easier for undocumented people to come to the US instead of being selective like even Canada is.

This one you got right. I emphatically agree with this characterization of my position and think it’s understated.

> I could go on and on, but I think the things the left is doing is flat out dangerous to society, while what the right does is maybe mean spirited sometimes but for the best.

I don’t think I have any chance of convincing you otherwise, I just have years of witnessing and experiencing violence to the contrary. Violence mostly directed at people who just wanted to exist, many of them politically involved in nothing at all. My “side” isn’t what you think. My entire political focus has been centered around advocating for people who are harmed for no fault of their own.

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