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Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

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Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#751

Post by 0dayz »

awb wrote: post #499
Thorentis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

It’s probably both. The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism. Regardless of how rational this fear is, they are stereotyping new female founders they’re meeting for the first time based on what an X% of other female founder’s have done in the past. For the men, it’s probably a risk/reward calculation. Keep your head down and be polite and have ~0% chance of…

No, since investors have nothing to fear when they give criticism to males, since they can predict the outcome to about 99%.

With female its the potential unknown predictability that causes the fear.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#752

Post by [deleted] »

pm90 wrote: post #731
throwaway192874 wrote: post #686

This meshes with an experience I had a few years into my career which I'll never forget and had definitely influenced and will continue to influence my future interactions with women in tech. I, cis white guy in the bay, was hired as a consultant to help build out a product and was pair programming with a woman founder & new engineer and made some passing comment about the CSS quality not being "ideal" or something o…

So what happened is that you had one bad experience and decided that it was representative of all people in that group? And you're saying that it wasn't made a big deal, that it was just pointed out to you?

[deleted]

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#753

Post by random5634 »

pm90 wrote: post #492
random5634 wrote: post #460

Female founder friend (non tech space) was in a female focused incubator / competition. She got only one set of somewhat critical feedback - ie, lacks experience in X and Y which are key in product space Z. She posted a comment on her social media focusing on this feedback as "criticism" that came from a sexist guy "of course". It was pretty easy to draw the line to the three panelists, one of whom was a guy. Ouch. I…

I won’t even pretend to know enough to be able to solve this problem. But does your social circle not include other female friends that you could discuss the optics of this situation with? Or better yet, be honest with the female friend that you wanted to advice, pointing out what she had done before and expressing your apprehension in providing critical feedback?

This is a fair question - not sure why you are getting down votes.

Background - I'm actually on the left a fair bit. So one issue - you are not supposed to really ask minorities / women to explain / teach you / help you deal with these issues because it in fairness burdens them. I'm not looking for that either.

In terms of my colleague who I'd mentored in past (before things had gotten more extreme). I think others have made good suggestions - do you want some suggestions that may have already been made (it's never truth really - just another persons guess) or comfort.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#754

Post by [deleted] »

herval wrote: post #539
dkersten wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-minority person, I often see people just being assholes. For example, some dominating dude who talks over everyone, who ignores others input, who takes credit for everything, etc. As a white male, when I encounter that behavior, I think to myself, wow, that guy is a fucking asshole. However, and I have experienced this, people who are in a minority often take it personally, that they're an asshole to them ,…

Why would you say something to defend the asshole? In your example, you interpreted the same - the guy was an asshole. Why give them a pass? In most cases I hear of people that claim they’re afraid of giving “candid feedback” to a minority, it’s almost always the case that the person is an asshole when giving feedback IN GENERAL as well. Maybe evaluating your general behavior first, before going all scared of this or…

[deleted]

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#755

Post by random5634 »

scarmig wrote: post #548

A female founder acquaintance of mine (who's quite smart and capable) went on a Twitter screed a couple weeks ago. As it turns out, someone else had copied her idea, and her startup now had a competitor. The competitor was also able to raise a solid amount of money despite her being first to market and her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation). So, this scenario isn't exactly unc…

I'm not so bothered by this personally because it's not someone asking / giving advice and getting blasted by it. That's the real crux that I see.

The scenario you paint is uncomfortable - only because there have been a fair number of situations (music and elsewhere) where the white person really has raked in the cash off a minorities good idea.

Luckily my friend was the competitor trying to compete in a market much more crowded than she perhaps realized.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#756

Post by random5634 »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #516
daenz wrote: post #505

There's a dark irony to the idea that the defenses against sexism (standing up and calling people out) are also causing an unintended secondary sexism by discouraging equal treatment out of fear of accusations. I've held the belief that if a someone can't recognize and clearly identify the differences between criticism based on merits and criticism based on bias, then there is no point attempting to do "what they wan…

I think trust is the issue, a person coming to you for answers is coming from a place of vulnerability. I've solved this in the past by asking the person if they want a comforting lie or an honest truth. I still provide feedback in both ways but the honest truth path is what is taken by most people who are able to take negative feedback correctly.

I think this is a good framing. Note I always frame as a suggestion rather than a critique - ie, places to increase focus.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#757

Post by random5634 »

bastawhiz wrote: post #513
random5634 wrote: post #460

Female founder friend (non tech space) was in a female focused incubator / competition. She got only one set of somewhat critical feedback - ie, lacks experience in X and Y which are key in product space Z. She posted a comment on her social media focusing on this feedback as "criticism" that came from a sexist guy "of course". It was pretty easy to draw the line to the three panelists, one of whom was a guy. Ouch. I…

> lacks experience in X and Y which are key in product space Z. Obviously you didn't post the feedback, but I wonder how this was phrased. If the feedback was "improve X and Y", I think I sympathize with the panelist. The feedback was solicited! If it was framed as "unlikely to succeed because inexperienced in X and Y" then I think that crossed a line from critical feedback to a somewhat demeaning comment, even if it…

A good point.

It was basically as part of scoring of ideas. I think in the weaknesses box the panelist had noted lack of experience / plans with respect to X and Y. So while I would make a suggestion, this was probably more in critique space.

The issue was more - unless you'd been in the space, you wouldn't realize that THIS issue was actually perhaps very important in the products success. Since I'd been a part of a business that had gotten TROMPED on for a similar set of non-product issues - it hit home.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#758

Post by lgleason »

throwaway192874 wrote: post #747
pm90 wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happened is that you had one bad experience and decided that it was representative of all people in that group? And you're saying that it wasn't made a big deal, that it was just pointed out to you?

It's agree that it was just one experience and my reaction may be too extreme, but I'm not claiming this is everyone. My only claim is that for me, it was such an uncomfortable situation that I'm willing to do a lot to avoid it happening again. And this was >5 years ago, and I think the likelihood of this happening has only gone up in that time. > And you're saying that it wasn't made a big deal, that it was just poi…

I think your reaction is a normal response given what happened to you.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#759

Post by mc32 »

smeej wrote: post #712
mc32 wrote: post #652

It seems the main problem is modern (woke) society and by that I mean indoctrination. It's really the fault of the media, school and everyone else who pushes the unnuanced narrative that everything must be judged thru sexist or racist lenses. In that climate where our shortcomings are someone else's fault because they are by default inherently sexist or racist, this is what you will end up with. And so those who coul…

I feel like I understand where that sentiment is coming from, that everything must come from some hatred in someone else, because so many things in the world seem arbitrarily difficult and so many negative things happen for no reason. Ultimately it's unproductive, but I understand the appeal of it. When my sister experienced sudden cardiac death in her twenties, 8 months pregnant, for no apparent reason at all, I des…

I’m sorry for your loss.

Yes, we want to have control over destiny, and depending on the negative event may reserve anger at creation or things and beings within it.

However, what the GP and GGP are referring to are intellectually avoidable. It’s mainly there because of social indoctrination and its effect on reason and judgement. Especially the young who are impressionable and believe these things uncritically. It’s sad to say, but they’re being taken advantage of by these charlatans.

It’s really not serving them. Long term it’s untenable, medium turn, people, thinkers, influencers, interested parties make some money on this.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#760

Post by friedman23 »

awb wrote: post #499
Thorentis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

It’s probably both. The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism. Regardless of how rational this fear is, they are stereotyping new female founders they’re meeting for the first time based on what an X% of other female founder’s have done in the past. For the men, it’s probably a risk/reward calculation. Keep your head down and be polite and have ~0% chance of…

Society's perception of what qualifies as sexist has changed drastically in a few years. Who knows, maybe well meaning criticism will be considered truly sexist by society in another 10 years. Why take the risk?
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